Episode 151 - Leadership Styles with Marc Pitman

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to the Leadership window podcast with Dr. Patrick Jenks. Each week through a social sector lens, Patrick interviews leaders and experts and puts us in touch with trends and tips for leading effectively. Patrick is a board certified executive coach, a member of the Forbes Coaches Council, a best selling author, award winning photographer and a professional speaker. And now, here's Dr. Patrick Jenks. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Hello everyone. Hey everyone. It's episode 151 of the Leadership Window. We crossed that 150 milestone recently and we're excited about that. Can't remember how many years it's been, I want to say, I don't know, maybe five, something like that. I think we started this during the pandemic and man, it has just rocked and rolled. We've got over 50,000 listeners per episode right now and we are still ranked in feedspots top 20 for. And that's a, that's a global ranking for those of you don't know. By the way, I'm going to brag about the show a little bit. Feedspot is the world's largest human curated database of blogs and podcasts and they have genres or sectors. This one is in the nonprofit leadership space and it's been ranked 6 or 7 now for a while. And we're proud of that because that's in there with leaders like Joan Gary and just, it's just been an amazing, amazing journey and getting more listeners as we go. And the reason is because we have amazing people like Mark Pittman on the show. Mark was with us in episode 24. So go back and listen to that when we talked a lot about his book the Surprising Gift of Doubt. Now if that doesn't ring your bell and make you curious and want to go to listen to episode 24 or go to Amazon and buy that book, it should, it really should. So go back and listen to that episode. We're going to talk today, I don't know about a couple things, leadership styles and some other stuff. But Mark Pittman is one of these guys that has a bio that like it would take us the whole episode to really go through it. But I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you some stuff here. I don't know which one he would consider to be the most important, probably the last part about being married to his best friend and being the father of three amazing kids. That's, I'll say that I'll put that in first because that's probably the best stuff. But Mark is the. I met Mark. I don't remember how. I think it was In a list serve. Mark, you were in. You were up north. Vermont, New Jersey. Where was it? Maine. Maine. Some I knew. [00:02:44] Speaker C: Wow, good memory. [00:02:45] Speaker B: I think we met that way. And then you were just moving to South Carolina, to Greenville, and I'm in Columbia, South Carolina. And we then met in person through the South Carolina work of working in the nonprofit mostly, I think. [00:03:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:02] Speaker B: Yeah. But Mark is the founder of Concord Leadership Group and he's the co founder of EWTS Coaching. And I couldn't wait to go and look that up. And it's so cool. I'm not even going to say what it is. I'm going to let Mark say what EWTS is. But he has served as It's. As the CEO of Concord Leadership Group for 20 years. And in that time he has presented trainings and keynotes to over 25,000 participants all over the world. And he's coached hundreds of CEOs, C suite executives, directors, owners. He is an ICF certified coach. In fact, he is or was. I don't know if he. I don't know if you still are. Mark. The. No, you. You used to be. I think your term is over. But you were at one time the president of the South Carolina chapter of the Coaching Federation, is that right? [00:03:57] Speaker C: Happily. The immediate past. The immediate. [00:04:00] Speaker B: I know. Isn't that a great feeling? Yes, it's so, so liberating. But in, in recent years, he's certifying 43. That number is probably higher now, what he calls Quadrant three leadership coaches. And we're going to define that here in a little bit. And man, I just goes on and on. He's got a master's in organizational leadership from Regent University. He's a certified Franklin Covey coach. He is a certified speaking professional of the National Speakers Association. And I think you were president of that too, weren't you? At some point, probably. [00:04:38] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, I was on the. I'm on the board for the National Speakers Association Foundation. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. [00:04:43] Speaker C: Very good memory. Wow. [00:04:44] Speaker B: He's executive director of the nonprofit academy and he. His family will walk out of the room if he starts belting his 80s tunes and they'll say they don't know him. But Mark, so cool to. It's been too long since you and I got together. Which reminds us, we just need to have lunch sometime and not feel like we're having to record it, but we're recording it. And thanks, man, for reconnecting. You and I both. We won't go into it, but you and I both have one heck of a 2025 from a challenge standp and we're excited about the year. What did I miss? Intro, what do people need to know about you? What's going on? [00:05:29] Speaker C: Oh, this is. I'm thrilled to be here. It's great to be a repeat guest and yeah, things are. The, the family thing is real. I. The make a joyful noise is what the scriptures say. And that's what I take for granted. Where the rest of my family actually is musical too. [00:05:47] Speaker B: So a few weeks ago I, I had John Rosenberg on my show. He's the author of a guide to thriving. So amazing that he told a story about how this whole idea of helping people thrive came to him. And he was in, he was in corporate America, really succeeding in corporate and what he would define as success in corporate America. And had climbed the ladder and stockholder and he had achieved leadership rankings. He reached this point, he's working 16 hour days, he's working seven days a week. And he reaches this point where he just realizes, man, this is, you know, how sustainable is this? And I guess he was starting to feel different. You know, signs of stress or burnout or whatever you call it. And the story he tells when you talk about family is he, he went down, I think it was the basement. He goes down the basement, his kids are down there. His two kids are down there just playing with Legos. And he said, I got down on my knees and I just started building stuff with them. And we just started playing. And he said that play. And he's a, he's a psychologist, sort of. And so he, he knows the psychology behind this. And you know, the frontal cortex did this and that. And he goes, yeah, whatever it was that happened in the brain, the play and the connection to the kids led him to, you know what, there's, there's a way out. There's a diff, there's better, there's higher, there's. So when you mentioned your family, and I know you, you have. Family is so important to you and so rich that it made me think of that how, you know, when we really connect back to our families. And I, I know this from having open heart surgery, you know, a few months ago. You boy, when you go through that, you're like, you know what family's most important? [00:07:47] Speaker C: It's more important than anything interesting, isn't it? Yeah, the, the. We. My wife and I have been together 31 years. We celebrated our. Well, we'll be celebrating our 31st anniversary this coming May at the time of this recording. But we have moved our Ourselves. Our birthday and anniversary celebration. Because mine is. My birthday is 12 days after Christmas. Hers is a few weeks after Christmas. So our anniversary is in May. So we just decided, let's have it all in September. When we met. We met on Labor Day weekend. So we have this grand. [00:08:17] Speaker B: Just. [00:08:19] Speaker C: Just fun. Permission to play. And play became our word for the year. So I'm really glad you mentioned that because there's. So we did a D and D one shot because we've never played D and D. When I was growing up, I wasn't. That wasn't what kids that went to the kind of groups I went to were allowed to do. My parents were against it and. But we just did it. You know, we've been doing things that our tell is if we have that kind of. Could we really do that? It's like we're in our 50s, we're self employed. This is sort of. It's a tell for us of like, maybe our inner critic can be tamed down. And maybe that's a, That's a sign that, yeah, we should maybe press into this. And the delight and the. It doesn't have to be for learning, but the amount of learning and creativity it opens up is incredible. But I don't. We're not doing it because of the, the output that we. We can do. It's to experience a whole nother part of life that, you know, getting married at a ridiculously young age, didn't we feel like, oh, maybe now we get to enjoy our 20s. [00:09:21] Speaker B: I know. Same here. Same here. 36 years for us. And I, I can relate exactly to that. You've used a couple of words that I just want to bring back out because we've used words recently and we use them a lot. Like words like energy and fulfillment and purpose. You just use the words joy and delight. Those are different, man. That's. I just want to pause on those two words for a minute. Where's our joy? Where's our delight? Are we creating space for that? Are we welcoming that? Are we valuing that? That's a good pause right there. I just, I just love that you use those two words. They, they, they resonated with me when you use. [00:10:03] Speaker C: Thanks for underscoring that. That. Yeah, there's something going on in me as we. That resonates, clearly. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So cool. [00:10:10] Speaker C: Joy is part of my mission statement. I've had the same mission statement since the late 90s and well, I've edited as the kids have come along and as different life events, but minimal edits and it's served me well. [00:10:22] Speaker B: Your personal mission or you or the. [00:10:24] Speaker C: Company personal mission statement. Yep. [00:10:26] Speaker B: So cool. So cool. [00:10:28] Speaker C: Yeah. I didn't realize that that was. Yeah. That it works for me, so. And as I take people through, I don't know if you do this, but earlier in my coaching career, I took people through writing a personal mission statement. Then I got away from it, and then one of my. Because coaching is more about the person, not about me coming up with training opportunities. Like if our trainer. It's just part of it is what coaching is. But I had one person who went through our coach certification program. He said you might want to reconsider that. It's because of you and your first coaching client, your first consulting client in Maine. You were coaching my CEO, and my CEO didn't know what to do with us as a staff. So he said, my coach is telling me to write our personal mission statement, so why don't you do that, too? And she said it was my first job, and because of that, I made so much better choices, and I'm now living this place where I can go hiking when I want to, and I have a freedom in my work. So she said, you might want to bring back. I'm inviting you to consider bringing back, helping people with their personal mission statements. [00:11:32] Speaker B: It's probably time for me to go back and renew or revisit mine, as you have done through the years. But I'm a believer in it. I like having the person. The personal mission statement. What I've learned is that you can't get to mission until you first understand purpose. Like, to me, the why comes before the mission. It's not the same thing. Like I. In the. In the nonprofit sector, we. We teach. Not we, but the. The sector has taught itself, or maybe the corporate sector is taught that mission is the why, but it's not. I've come. I've come to believe that mission is the what, mission is the charge. You know, here's your mission, here's your charge, should you choose to accept it. But why is that? Your mission is a question that. That I think is even harder to answer for people to pause. What's. You know, what's my why in life? Not my what, but my my why. And anyway, there's certainly a relationship. [00:12:30] Speaker C: My wife challenged me to redo my. I used to say I also did values through a value inventory sorter when I went through Franklin Covey coaching. And it was great 23 years ago, all this stuff. And so I say that every time we're training Leaders. And she finally challenged me a few years ago, why don't you do it again? And so I did. And then I took the essentialism theory of primary means. 1. It's not a 10 or 5. It's rank them in order. But then I. So this past year, I've been going through another round of this as I've been. There's. Robert Glaser wrote a book, the Compass Within. It just came out last year. And it's a really cool parable. And it takes you through another. A different way of values not being just a word, but a phrase that helps you make decisions. And so with coaching clients, I always have asked them, what does integrity mean to you? And I always try to help people attach a story to the value because the value could mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But. But it occurred to me just recently, I had one of those duh moments that maybe my mission statement that I've had for so many years embeds my values in it. And so I ran it through. I happily work with the large language models. And so I ran it through the large language models and was shocked to see what they pulled out as archetypes and values. And so now I've been in another process of trying to really codify that so that it becomes right now, my values show up on my apple reminders when it's time for me to take my vitamins. The first vitamin is my values. So I'm trying to keep it in front of me, but I want it to be more of an even more intentional direction. [00:14:11] Speaker B: I was just about. You took the word like one second. The word is intentional. Yeah. You're being intentional about it. [00:14:18] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:14:19] Speaker B: We all have values. Many of us don't know what they are. [00:14:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:23] Speaker B: But we have them and we live them. We actually believe him. We haven't paused enough to go, what is it? And where did it come from? And am I living it? And what does that look like? And yeah, man, I love that. I love that we decided we were going to do this episode and talk about leadership styles because you. Well, one, I've been all up, down, sideways, backwards, inside out and otherwise on leadership styles. There's a lot of them out there. Right? You have. And we do a disc assessment. And we do. Do. You know, there's the. There's the, you know, teams assessment, and there's the enneagram and there's thyro B. And there's all these things. Right. [00:15:07] Speaker C: And sales dogs. Colors and animals. [00:15:10] Speaker B: Yeah, colors and animals. Right. Yeah. But they all come down. So my, my studies in organizational leadership affirmed for me how so many of these things all come back to the exact same thing. [00:15:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:27] Speaker B: And I, what I love about your model and I want this, what I want to talk about, I want to talk about your model for the, the four leadership styles and the research you did to come up with those four. But they're just, they're aligned with, with what is known not just in academia, but you live through this and you go, yeah, that's them. That is them. I've seen them, I've lived them. I did your assessment online and nailed it as far as I'm. And one of the things I did just to quickly tell you this, sometimes you look at people look at these leadership styles and they go, oh, that this has to be wrong. Right. I want to be transformational. And I believe I am. Right. But yet it puts you at transactional or it puts you at charismatic or something else. I've learned to embrace where these profiles put me. Like there, you know, there's. So I profiled as charismatic and we're going to go through the four. [00:16:25] Speaker C: Awesome. And there's a charismatic leader at a board retreat just last month. I have them do it in the retreat and then express. And she was trying to, she took it three times. Trying to change the answer. [00:16:38] Speaker B: Trying to game it. [00:16:39] Speaker C: Yeah, trying to game it, but have integrity. Because she didn't want to be charismatic. And I have a theory on why. Why that may be. [00:16:46] Speaker B: But I know why. I mean, as I was, as I was, you know, when you answer the questions, they're very simple. I want to encourage people go online at concordleadershipgroup.com and do this because simple. Yeah, it's real easy. It was four or five questions and. But they're accurate. And you know, when you, when you think about, I mean, I. Transformational and transactional leadership and the dichotomy between those two. In academia, I study that. We do transformational leadership, you know, the multi factor questionnaire and all the stuff that, that they use to measure transformational leadership. Everybody wants to be a transformational leader. And I, and I like to think that in some ways I am, but the style is more done through the charismatic lens. And I, you know, I don't, I think people take these and they're like, oh, I'm, I'm a less than or I should be this right. Gosh, I wish I was a servant leader. Because there's virtue in that. There's virtue in all of these. If you are using them with purpose. And. And so, anyway, so for reason, I'm. [00:17:51] Speaker C: A. I. I love the Enneagram since I ran into it in my teenage years in the 80s. And I only started using it in coaching a few years ago when a friend of mine asked me to teach on it at a conference. But what I have noticed in teaching it publicly is that we identify with the shadow of our style because we live it, and so we don't want that. So what we hear is, good, good, good, good, good, shadow, darkness, bad. And that is more telling because we experience all of it. And so for those. So that's one of the reasons I love the work that you and I get to do, is we get to show people. Yeah. But there's also. There's a brightness that's causing. [00:18:26] Speaker B: There's a hero to all of these. [00:18:28] Speaker C: All of these. There's a balcony to that. To that basement. So. [00:18:31] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's also. It's also a good reminder and awareness that we have blind spots. [00:18:38] Speaker C: Yes. [00:18:38] Speaker B: Right. Because charismatic. You know, as I was answering some of the questions, I was like, yeah, I do this. I probably shouldn't, but I do. So this is how I'm going to answer it. And it. But it. But it. Those just being asked the questions can often illuminate blind spots for us. And certainly if we use these in 360 mode, they really. They really do walk us. You mind just walking us through the four styles? And then I'd love to know sort of how you define each of them. And then what was the research behind this? How did you arrive at these? [00:19:11] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. So the four styles are servant leadership, transformational leadership, charismatic leadership, and transactional. [00:19:18] Speaker B: And those aren't. You're not saying those in any particular order? [00:19:21] Speaker C: No, I'm not. No. Thank you for saying that. One of the greatest joys for this is not only identifying your style, but also then realizing, oh, I have choices, there's options. Maybe I need to shift my weight and be a different way. And I love. I love giving people that kind of freedom. [00:19:37] Speaker B: You know what? Then, you know, boy. [00:19:39] Speaker C: Yeah, go ahead. [00:19:40] Speaker B: This is going to be hard, Mark. This is going to be. [00:19:41] Speaker C: This is going to be so hard. [00:19:42] Speaker B: Go for it. Because what you just said, what I run into a lot with coaches is they'll. They'll. This will open up, as we say, some blind spots or they'll realize. I'll be trying to help them realize they have a choice. The choices in behaviors, mindset shifts, habits, how we projecting to our people. There's a fine line. And people struggle with this between choosing to behave differently and being inauthentic. [00:20:15] Speaker C: Yes. [00:20:16] Speaker B: Like, I still want to be myself. Like you, you know, you're telling me, hey, be yourself. Embrace yourself. But then you're telling me I need to be more empathetic with my people. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly. You got it. So there's. You know what I'm saying? [00:20:31] Speaker C: Yes. That's called growing up. Yeah. [00:20:33] Speaker B: But. But people think, well, I feel like I'm pretending if I behave. I know I need to do this more. I know I need to listen to my people more. I know I need to spend more time, maybe informally with them or whatever, but it feels inauthentic and it feels like I'm faking. [00:20:49] Speaker C: I had somebody, a friend of mine, Nicole Kramer out of Nashville, say people would complain. She used to teach. She teaches sales now. She used to teach math to middle schoolers and loved it and had a good success rate. And so of course she can teach sales. But she would be teaching these math things, and the students be like, ah, this is hard, Ms. Kramer. I don't like this. And she sits. It's not. It's not hard. It's just new. You just haven't done this before. It's like changing the. The hand that you brush your teeth with. It feels awkward. [00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:17] Speaker C: So, yeah, it's not inauthentic. It's just a new. [00:21:19] Speaker B: Just new. Ah, it's brilliant. I love that. Wish I'd thought of that. Dang it. [00:21:24] Speaker C: Google Nicole Kramer. And yeah, she's brilliant. She does a lot of videos. [00:21:27] Speaker B: All right, so I interrupted you. Keep rolling. [00:21:29] Speaker C: So the four styles. Servant leadership is more. The servant leaders define success by do the people around me have what they need to carry out whatever they've been asked to do? Transformational leaders tend to define success by. We're all following this mission and we're all coming together in service of this mission and chasing this mission. Charismatic leaders tend to lead by personal, I guess, personality. People are just drawn to them and want to do whatever they suggest to do. And transactional leaders tend to be the. More the. Some people would call it quid pro quo of, hey, you. You signed up for this job description, and you're an adult and. And you're not doing it. So let's. Let's, you know, is this mission creep. Is this really in your job? Let's. Let's keep it together. What. What's kind about transactional leaders is people know where they stand and they know if they're moving if they're. They're doing. Performing their job well, or if they're making progress in the way that they is is appropriate for the position they've chosen. So those are the four. [00:22:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:36] Speaker C: Can I tell you where I came from? [00:22:37] Speaker B: Yeah, please. [00:22:38] Speaker C: Okay. So I'm a nerd like you. I did my master's in organizational leadership, and I learned that most of the stuff that we learned about leadership is all anecdotes. And then people write books and quote the. The books of the anecdotes. It's just like in fundraising. The I was. [00:22:52] Speaker B: I started out and call it qualitative research. [00:22:55] Speaker C: Right. The. The. In my. Started early in my career, most of my career I've been a nonprofit fundraiser and leadership. That's the biggest nonprofit leadership issue. But I had first fundraising training. Somebody said, use blue ink. So to this day, I have a pen with blue ink. Sign your letters with blue ink because that's. We did that and we had a successful multimillion dollar campaign. And then it turns out there's really. There's no study. There's no research to figure this out. And in my master's that one of the best parts of I'm a nerd, and I don't want I. Part of what you said purpose. I'm here to. I'm a steward of what I've been given, and I don't want to ever lead anybody astray. So I want to know the studies behind what I'm sharing. I don't want to just share things because it sounds good. Do you remember Fast Company magazine? [00:23:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:23:50] Speaker C: Okay. So they used to have a client, a consultant debunking unit. There was a whole page where they take a story that consultants would share and talk about why it's not true. [00:23:57] Speaker B: That's not hard to do. [00:23:59] Speaker C: I grew up on motivational speakers and my parents. I went to school, so I had schoolwork, and I was a Pittman, so my parents gave me Pittman homework. And the motivational speakers, they were so the stories are so inspirational. And then I would read in Fast Company that they were fake. They were. But they were presented as real. They were presented as science or as real instead of just. Here's a way to illustrate the point. So I never want to do that. So that's where I. With this. I'd done a study before where we looked at how far in the organization does mission go or strategic planning. So we looked at the board members, the CEO, senior staff, middle managers, frontline, and volunteers. And we were able to look at different aspects of leadership from that. But with this next one I wanted to partner with, I did all that myself. And I did it all in the correct way, verifiably correct way of doing research that makes it so it's real. You can quote it, but I also have a business to run. So one of my colleagues said, you can get professors to do this, you know, or people at universities. So my friend Adrian Sargent, who was at University of Plymouth at the time, I went to him and said, I want to do another leadership study on leadership. And I want it to be verifiably, like, up to the rigor of university. [00:25:21] Speaker B: Valid and reliable and peer reviewed and. [00:25:24] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And be able to be tested. Like, I. My worst. I guess my worst fear would be being up on stage and not being able to answer or cite the source for something that was said. So. So that would. That's shadow. But it's also tremendous. I love it because it makes it. When people start pushing me, I can play like I'm not flustered because I know where we're going to go. And I've had to learn that not everybody really wants that. Most people want the tip of the iceberg. Not knowing, not caring what's underneath the water, which is okay, or not. Not being at a place yet to consume what's under the water. But the tip is remarkable and beautiful in its own right. So that's been a. That's been a growth process. But I partnered with Adrian and he with one of his students, Harriet Day, and we were. I wanted to. What he. What was interesting to him about particularly nonprofit leadership was what moves the needle. So what style are you? And then how does it impact the outcomes in your organization? And so we tied it to fundraising because that was an easy one for us in our sphere to look at. And he wanted to do transformational, charismatic and transactional as the leadership styles. And he was defining them by verifiable bodies of research that have been around for decades that we can go back to and academically look at. It's not anecdotally. It's not just a new fuzzy label, but there's. There's bodies of work that we can look at. And so I asked him. I remember where I was when I said, love it. Love what you're. Love what you're proposing here. Could we look at servant leadership too? Because Greenleaf wrote about this decades ago and this. And he. It wasn't on his radar screen, but, boy, are we glad we introduced. We brought that into the study as well, because it was. It turns out there was a large body of people that were servant leaders. My wife doesn't like the label because she thinks it means diminutive, like upstairs, downstairs, servant, as opposed to a leader who serves. [00:27:21] Speaker B: We spent a lot of time in our org leadership doctoral program on steward leadership. [00:27:29] Speaker C: Oh, I like that. [00:27:31] Speaker B: And it was, you know, in the frameworks we looked at is servant leadership lives inside like. Like concentric circles. Servant leadership lives inside steward leadership. Steward leadership was defined as. I love. The way you define servant leadership a while ago is that it's all about the people that you're leading. And steward leadership is all about the owner. [00:27:56] Speaker C: Yes. [00:27:57] Speaker B: So I'm stewarding something that belongs to somebody else. [00:28:02] Speaker C: What I love about that is that servant leaders, we find. And through the course of the research, they have a hard time calling people to account. [00:28:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:10] Speaker C: So. [00:28:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:11] Speaker C: And that can be a problematic. In an organization where you have limited resources or you have a direction that you have to have. [00:28:16] Speaker B: You got it. And stewardship adds the accountability piece. Absolutely. [00:28:20] Speaker C: And you don't. You're not out of character. You're not being a jerk. You're not being a micromanager. You're being. I love that. [00:28:25] Speaker B: Stuart, that's beautiful. All right. [00:28:28] Speaker C: It helps that. That's one of my main words, too, anyway. [00:28:30] Speaker B: Well, you. You used it a while ago on something. [00:28:32] Speaker C: Okay. Did I? [00:28:33] Speaker B: Good. Yeah. I don't remember what it was. [00:28:35] Speaker C: The purpose part for me is definitely stewardship. That's cool. [00:28:38] Speaker B: That's what made me think about that. [00:28:42] Speaker C: Even though we did it with nonprofits, organizations, over a thousand CEOs took the test. And what we did are. Took all the questions. There were questions that weren't labeling at all. It was all behavior based. How do you lead? When you're pressed through the wall, what do you choose to. How do you make your decisions? And Adrian and Harriet did. What was really cool was that we have found that it works in. It's a human thing. It's not a sector, it's not nonprofit for profit sector, but it's human. I've taken this out and done it with companies and groups that have all sorts of leaders, and they all identify with them. And that's one of the things I wanted. One of the most challenging things, maybe you can help me with this, because you're good with the matrixes and all, is that people expect four quadrants or they expect a picture. And it wasn't that we didn't grow into the hierarchy. Hierarchy, yeah. It's There isn't a better or worse. It depends on what your outcomes are, what you're trying to get. And yeah, even then it's not necessarily better or worse. Some people are just have a preferred style that they lean into. [00:29:53] Speaker B: Yeah. One of, one of the people I've come in contact with over the past year is Aman Gohal and she's, she's on our, our show a few episodes back, a few months back. [00:30:07] Speaker C: Back. [00:30:08] Speaker B: But she's very big into his vertical development that you and I talked about offline a little bit and you know, has taught at Georgetown in leadership coaching and these things. And I, she has a phrase that she uses that I've completely stolen and use all the time when it comes to these assessments that we take. She said take them seriously but hold them lightly. Oh, you know, they're, they're not everything like we, we are not an assessment. We are not a profile. I'm not a D or a, or a red or a transformational leader or like those profiles indicate to us and illuminate to us some projections that help us understand ourselves a little bit better and how we, how we approach. But you know, we're pretty complex human beings. None of these things, none of these assessments is a perfect tool. She also says about models and I've heard something similar before, but all models are imperfect and some are useful. [00:31:10] Speaker C: Oh, that's really, really good. And I got the labels. I, I in surprising gifted doubt. One of my friends, one of the people that reviewed it, I, I submitted it to 12 different people that had different lived experiences and orientations than me to see if it resonated or if it was just written for someone with my perspective. And one of the things she loved about the assessment model layers that I said, I said some are about abilities, what you just naturally do well, some are about behaviors, what other people can see you doing. And then some are about measuring motivations, why you do what you do or getting closer to that. And she had not seen that like disc being a behavior based one in Enneagram being motivation based but and Myers. [00:31:51] Speaker B: Briggs being personality based, more hardwiring, you know. [00:31:56] Speaker C: Exactly. So for me that, that is exciting. I recently took again for the AI models I, I try and use all three Gemini Cloud and Chat because they have good weeks and bad weeks. But I went into them and I said here are all the, the, the results of all these assessments I've taken from the perspective of an expert on these assessments. What are superpowers I'm bringing to my clients that I'M totally unaware of. [00:32:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:32:25] Speaker C: And it came back. All three of them came back with really helpful yeah words. And it was one of the few times where I've seen them say also here's where you're overwhelming them. Here's where you need to tone it down because this is probably where you're. This is a blind spot for you. And most likely. And I love that I thought that was really cool too. [00:32:44] Speaker B: You know what's a cool thing to do is use the language. Use a language model with CEO candidates and you know these assessments they do in the hiring process, you know and they'll do all these different assessments, throw them into a language model and ask the language model to give you the some good interview questions for that candidate. Oh it's really cool. [00:33:07] Speaker C: I do that with podcasts. I say what are questions that would bore them to tears and what are questions that. [00:33:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:33:12] Speaker C: But I hadn't thought about use. That's a great way to. [00:33:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So like you know, if, if one comes back, you know, let's say transactions leadership. Right. It comes, comes someone comes back really strong as a transactional leader and and maybe the hiring committee or the board or the organization or whatever is looking for maybe in their values as an organization it's servant leadership is they value that so much. So what are some questions you can ask a transactional leader to get at their service Bent. [00:33:42] Speaker C: Oh I love that. [00:33:43] Speaker B: And not just hey are you. Are you a servant leader? But you know the a sort of tell me a time when or how do you, you know, how do you tell me how you've developed your people while you've developed your mission and your business model or whatever those are. So because those are. That's how those assessments can be helpful. [00:34:03] Speaker C: The leaders swing. We get used to one type of leader so we look for a different senior leader and get really bam feel feel hoodwinked when the transactional number cost cutting or numbers aware KPI aware person comes in because we assume that we'd the outward focus leadership servant leader kind of person. And so I like what you're saying because it can help the search committee also be a little bit more intentional about what are qualities we want to keep as well as what are qualities we want to introduce. [00:34:38] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. [00:34:40] Speaker C: Wow. [00:34:40] Speaker B: Be aware of and the interviewee doesn't even know what you're getting at. They don't ever know. [00:34:46] Speaker C: That's what this study too. I took the study I didn't know I just to make sure that the things Worked in the right way. I didn't know what we were getting at either. It was just study on CEO leadership, senior leaders, non profit organizations, social sector organizations. [00:35:02] Speaker B: Have you used this assessment in a 360 format? [00:35:06] Speaker C: No. And that will be my own blind spot. I have not met a360. I like they the experiences I've had administering and not so being part maybe but being in an organization that use them or administering them is it gave outweighted space for whiners and complainers and so that could be just the administration was not done well but it seemed to give. It didn't seem to serve the purpose that people were looking for it to serve. I have in the last year come into a lot of people that love their 360s and love having had one for them to see their blind spots and see their growth spots so well. [00:35:50] Speaker B: I do. I do love them and see huge value in them. But I also have seen what you're talking about. I've seen more of what you're talking about in surveys like employee engagement surveys, your job satisfaction surveys. Those are grounds for sort of in a360 I have found it depends on who the stakeholders are that you choose and what the purpose is and what level of leadership you're like. There's a maturity that comes with this too. The reason that I like the 360s again all models are imperfect. Some are useful is that it's more where you find the blind spots. I do find like the questions in your survey not to and this isn't a critique, it's just a reality. Yeah, it's multiple choice and the answers make it real easy for someone to select what they want to be or think they should be rather than the honesty of what they really are, what they really do. And that's the only thing about the sort of self assessments that are not psychometric. Like if they don't know what they're getting at. [00:37:08] Speaker C: So that's a really good point because we can game the system if we wanted to. [00:37:12] Speaker B: But you're those questions you add the reason I asked the question about 360 is as I was going through them I thought this would be a fantastic 36 just the nature of it, the nature of your survey. Like I'm thinking of what what would people say about in fact that's kind of how I answered my question questions. [00:37:30] Speaker C: I like that a lot. I actually said what see outside of yourself. How would people see what do I. [00:37:35] Speaker B: Think other people would say about me in this situation? That's how I answered it because you're so smart. No, it's just. That's just. I don't know if it was right or wrong. It was just the mind bent. Because if I go at it from. I definitely, you know, include everybody in my decision. Definitely. Yes. That sounds virtuous. I'm sure I do that. That the reality is I don't very well. [00:37:59] Speaker C: And so asked a few times, what about the narcissist? Like, where do the narcissists fit in any of these paradigms that you're talking about? [00:38:05] Speaker B: I was like, well, is that a leadership style or just a personality? That's a good question. Anyway, man. [00:38:13] Speaker C: So. So the results. [00:38:14] Speaker B: If we. [00:38:15] Speaker C: The results of this just to give people a kind of a feeling for where this study. If you go to conquered leadershipgroup.com style, you can take the quiz and you'll get emailed the report to that has the executive summary. But day or two. But after you take it. But the. There are 54% of the people were servant. Came in as servant leaders. And this is nonprofits. And so that was ind. That was indicative of the social sector probably. But it was also helpful. One, I'm so glad we didn't leave them out. And two, the. What we found was that they had the highest likelihood of having fundraising be a team sport. Everybody seeing a part in fundraising. And we think that maybe because they are so able to see the team and so people are all contributing together with that. So it was. It was cultural philanthropy. And so Adrian Sargent said that that had the highest correlation of a culture of philanthropy where fundraising isn't on one person's shoulders. Transformational leadership was 35% of the respondents. And this had had a caveat. There was also a high correlation with cultural philanthropy. If the. And this is where I love academic research because you can go to the layers and see different, you know, pull different levers and see what the other underlying things were. If the leader was really confident in their leadership's ability. Yeah. [00:39:36] Speaker B: Mediating factors. Yeah. [00:39:37] Speaker C: Yeah. And it turns out 1 21% of the respondees said that they had no confidence at all in their leadership. All of these were CEOs already. There's 21% were saying, I shouldn't even be at the table. I am totally the wrong person for this. [00:39:53] Speaker B: These were all nonprofits. [00:39:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:55] Speaker B: Okay. Look what you're talking about. You could overlay this. These results you're talking about right now with all the stuff we do too, like motivators. Most of the CEOs in the nonprofit sector that we do their motivation level across seven dimensions. Altruism is the highest almost always. Economic is almost always the lowest. See? [00:40:24] Speaker C: Yeah. And that, you know, gets confusing and I, it's one of the reasons I like looking at non profits even though I work with leaders in all sectors, is that it's one of the most confusing sectors to be in because your funding doesn't come from your customers. You're there because the people you serve can't afford to do what you or need to raise money to do. So you have to talk to donors and you don't own the response. You don't have the responsibility and authority. You have the responsibility of making the decisions. But there's this board that has the authority to actually verify this situation. So you're getting pulled apart in a lot of different ways. Instead of. It's all leadership is messy and there's a lot of plates to spin, but there's certain dynamics that are inherently built into the structures of nonprofits in North America that, that make it an interesting. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Play space and dysfunctional is the word I use for it. [00:41:11] Speaker C: So, so there are there, I know there are people listening, saying, but wait, what about the other two? So charismatic was 29% and charismatic people. The what? Charismatic. When it came to revenue or, or cultural philanthropy, charismatic leaders tended to have, have to. To to shoulder the burden of finances all on their own of generating the revenue. And I spoke to one after a conference session and he was totally burnt out because he, he was more, he was capable in getting stuff done and, and his board and you know, the people that were, that were over had oversight over him just kind of checked out. And so he was burning out because they weren't pushing back, they weren't helping him refine, which he liked a lot. They were just saying whatever he, whatever you do, you know, whatever you touch turns to gold. This is great. We'll keep doing it this way. And what you know Patrick, from reading from, from what you saw, the a shadow side with charismatic leaders is that people will do whatever the charism says, even if it's unethical or bad. So, so that's where it can be challenging. Charismatic, Charismatic charisma. Charisma. Charismatic leadership can be an incredible asset. There are some times where you just need to shift into that charismatic role of. I don't care if you understand or not, we need to go this way. We need to run away from, you know, that coming, that charging rhinoceros. We need to get out of here. So there it's okay to Shift into that. [00:42:36] Speaker B: That. [00:42:36] Speaker C: But there are times where people just tend to trust others and it can. The charismatic leader just needs to know that they be a steward of that. [00:42:45] Speaker B: That's so good. So good. [00:42:47] Speaker C: And then the last one was transactional. There's only 5% of the response. CEOs that responded to this had behaviors that linked to transactional leadership. And the correlation with this was with a decreasing revenue in the organization. So we don't know correlation is not causation. [00:43:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:06] Speaker C: We do not know if transactional leaders caused revenue to dive or what I think is more likely. When revenue is diving, you need someone checking, you know, dotting the I's and crossing the t's and saying, hey, wait, are we doing what we say we're going to do? Is there any place we need to cut back because we've overextended? I think that's probably. And I think that's one of the gifts of transactional leadership is that they're able to, to see more clearly some organizational structures and systems that others that may be seeing people in a different way wouldn't value as much. But the systems are really important because they support the work that happens. [00:43:47] Speaker B: So I am not. By the way, before I ask this question, where, where is the. Is this in the doubt book? [00:43:55] Speaker C: No, no, this is. This, this is a complimentary to the surprising gift of doubt. Yeah, this is different. This be. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Are you putting this in a book? [00:44:04] Speaker C: It's conquered leadershipgroup.com report if you want to get the executive summary and I can send it to you to put in the show notes if you want. [00:44:11] Speaker B: Well, I'm talking about all the, like the percentages and that, that, that's, it's interesting. Okay. [00:44:16] Speaker C: That's it. That's in an executive summary of the report. Yeah. [00:44:19] Speaker B: So here's my, my question. This is not a gotcha question. This is a. Am I understanding this right? As I might have missed the numbers? Exactly, Pol. But can someone. It looks like the percentages you gave me are well over total. Well over a hundred percent. [00:44:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:36] Speaker B: So does that mean that. I'm assuming what that means is that some people profile evenly between two. [00:44:43] Speaker C: Yes. Okay, very good. [00:44:44] Speaker B: Okay. [00:44:44] Speaker C: And that and the. @conqueredleadershipgroup.com style or fundraisingcoach.com style, that quiz that you talked about, the five question two minute quiz factors in for, for that. So there are some people that will be primarily one of those four and there are other people that'll be blends. And so the report that they get. [00:45:03] Speaker B: Back, it literally says it's A blend. [00:45:05] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, there's a blend on the, on the screen. And then there's also, when you get emailed, that has even more. [00:45:10] Speaker B: That's good. [00:45:10] Speaker C: More description behind it and description of the other types. So you know what those are, too? [00:45:15] Speaker B: Yeah, very cool. [00:45:17] Speaker C: You can tell I geek out about this stuff. [00:45:19] Speaker B: No way. I do, too. It's awesome. Hey, so in. In our remaining time, I want to. I want to look at another model that's on your site. Site, which is the leadership journey. And what you have there is quadrants. And I love quadra. I love a good matrix. But you have quadrants. And I know it's hard on a podcast to visualize it, but I'd like to try. [00:45:42] Speaker C: Okay. [00:45:44] Speaker B: And I love that you call this a journey. So it's not, oh, I'm in this quadrant, or. No, this is. The quadrant I'm in is. It's. It's movement in and out of these quadrants. If I'm. If I'm understanding it right. [00:45:56] Speaker C: Yes. [00:45:57] Speaker B: And so could you just describe. Describe visually for us, Try to get. Help us get an image of it. And then let's walk through because I have a question. I want to talk about quadrant three, leadership, as you call it. [00:46:12] Speaker C: This is the gotcha question, right? [00:46:13] Speaker B: Yeah, and. No, no, no, I already asked that one and I didn't get you, so I'm not going to try again. [00:46:19] Speaker C: I appreciate the invitation here. So if you're not driving, picture an axis vertical line would be your confidence line, and the horizontal line would be your inputs. Where you're getting your leadership cues or inputs from. The top of the vertical line is high confidence. The bottom of the vertical line is unsure. Where you're lacking confidence, the horizontal line has one side which is external inputs and one side that's internal inputs. So the. Where you Start in Quadrant 1 is where you observe leaders. You're the highest confidence. And you're looking externally, you're looking at the people that you've seen lead before. You're looking at probably athletic coaches. You've had teachers, early job supervisors. And you're at your highest confidence because either you finally, you're. You. You feel like. Like finally somebody sees I can lead, or you trust the person that puts you there. I don't see it myself, but they do. So I'm. That's the highest. The confidence you'll have the observed quadrant. I really wanted to call, you know, copying, because you're basically trying out the stuff that you've seen other people do, and that tends to not work very well because you're not them. So that's when the confidence drops down and you drop down into quadrant quadrant two, which is the experiment quadrant, which is where you start trying to figure out, what's wrong with me. Why is this not working? It could be an introvert following an extrovert leader and saying, why is it so draining? He seemed to have so much energy when he didn't have any structure. Why do I need an agenda? Or so people start going through certifications, they listen to podcasts, they go to conferences. The whole while. All good things. The whole while, though, it's that nagging question of I. They're going to find out I don't know what I'm doing. They're going to find out online. [00:48:10] Speaker B: Imposter syndrome. [00:48:12] Speaker C: It is. Yeah, yeah, it's. And my friend Denise Jacobs says that the only people that don't get imposter syndromes are true imposters. [00:48:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:23] Speaker C: So. So again, but they're lurching from fix to fix, from trying to get it right to trying to get it right, and trying to say just ahead of the people they're leading because they just. Something doesn't feel right. And all the other leaders around them seem to have it figured out. Nobody else seems to be struggling the way they are. [00:48:37] Speaker B: Okay, so again, you're in. You're in the lower left quadrant, which is I'm in the unsure category on. [00:48:44] Speaker C: The vertical and still looking to other people. [00:48:47] Speaker B: And I'm getting my cues from outside myself. [00:48:51] Speaker C: Right, okay. Yeah. Which again, is not bad. Getting looking at research, taking the courses, going to the conferences, listening to the podcast. Learning is a really good thing, and seeing what other people have done can help you not have to replicate it yourself. So there. There's a very good thing, but it's not the. In coaching. In the executive coaching I've done For the last 23 years, I find that this is where people either get overwhelmed by their doubt and say, I'm just. That's it. I'm broken. They throw up their hands and there's nothing else I can do. And I just need to ride this out until I can retire. I hope I can retire. Or they say, I'm tired of feeling this broken. Maybe we never get this thing right. I never understand this part of this thing. Maybe I have a perspective that's needed in the conversation. Maybe I can look at this in a different way. Maybe my team is bringing something to the sector that hasn't been discussed, and that's our gift. It's not our. You know, it's not a bug. It's a feature. That's where the doubt pushes you. The surprising gift of doubt pushes you into looking at the internal self stuff. I don't like how this feels. I don't. There's something jarring about what's happening here. What can that be? [00:50:07] Speaker B: Timeout. [00:50:09] Speaker C: Yeah. As you're running at 100 miles an hour because you're leading anyway. So. But it's quadrant three. This is where you take. You start paying attention to the inner cues that we've been trained so much in our culture to not listen to. And it's not throwing out all the stuff you've learned but it's complimenting them with the nuances of our style, our hardwiring. The areas we look at our goal setting which is purpose. We look at our mission. Goal setting. Mission is more the purpose. And then goal setting is how we get it done. We also look at our hard wiring. I'm not a left handed writer. My dad was ambidextrous so he could write things differently and do things differently than I could. I have to take a little bit more effort with my left hand because I'm right handed. So it's not. It's not that I'm a bad person person. But it's just that I have different abilities. And as we get to. I firmly believe as we steward our strengths and be very aware of our. Our. Our weaknesses, we free other people up to just relish their strengths because there are people that love to do the things we don't love to do. Which is mind boggling to me. But that's the analyzed place. This is where all the rich discoveries happen of I was telling you offline. This is where the joy and coaching comes in. Where you have that. The call with the leader and they say it's not just me. I'm not the only one making it up as I go along. [00:51:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:30] Speaker C: Or everybody else seems to have it figured out. Nobody's. And. And it's not appropriate for a leader to say like I had a leader in Colorado say I can't. Yeah. Vulnerability and all this. Great. I have a hundred people relying on me for payroll. So I can't just be all out there vulnerable. I just can't be saying I don't know what's going on. I don't even know how the sector's going to survive another quarter because I need them to have some stability in so they can actually do their jobs that they've been asked to do. [00:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So Again, you're still in the unsure space. [00:52:03] Speaker C: Yes. [00:52:03] Speaker B: But you're questioning it now. Toward purpose and meaning and growth. Learning, learning. [00:52:10] Speaker C: You're questioning your inner critic in some ways, I guess I hadn't thought of this, but you're taking your inner critic and saying, all right, you've been dumping on me for lacking in this area. [00:52:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:19] Speaker C: What if that's not the, that's not the whole story. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:22] Speaker C: And as you learn this, as you learn the language of the different assessments or of different studies or, or different ways of doing things, you learn to say, share things in ways that aren't. I just don't feel right. That is not a convincing argument for a lot of people. People and I, and I think that's there's reasons, there are people that abuse that. But you begin to say, you know, the person before me was an extrovert. I happen to be an introvert. So agendas help me to know what it is that you're hoping to do in the meeting, what you're hoping to accomplish. And you and any number of very other areas like that. And as you're able to lift that, that use those words or for your team, you know, know most other teams do this type of thing. Our team tends to think our clients are brilliant. And so we don't have a preset formula that we're going to take you on. We're going to co create this. And that can feel a little disconcerting because you don't get a curriculum right up front. But it's actually better because you get something that's designed perfectly for you. As you're having those words, your confidence goes up and you're able to be in the focus quadrant of quadrant four. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Which is I'm still getting my cues internally. I'm self reflecting, I'm being self aware, I'm managing my self emotion and all of that. And I've become more confident now. [00:53:43] Speaker C: Yes. Because I have a map. It's like when you're what you know, you can know for yourself. Do I need to copy somebody? Do I need a mentor or advisor that I can copy? Do I need to take a course or read a book or do something or do I, is it one of those areas where I need to revisit my own internal operating system or my or my teams? The corporate values that we have, you have, but you realize there's a map. Instead of just kind of having these blinders on and trying to make yourself fit into somebody else's mold, you get to, you have that more Agility. [00:54:19] Speaker B: So I love this Mark. And I really do appreciate, Appreciate the explanation through it. And our listeners don't know this, but I, I had to get a little explanation on it before the recording because as I looked at this, I saw, okay, the Quadrant 3, that the name of it is analyze. I'm in the unsure space and I'm in the internal space. When I put those three together without context and without knowing what this is, it looks like navel gazing. Right? It looks like. [00:54:47] Speaker C: I'm so glad you asked because you're right. [00:54:50] Speaker B: Why would I want to be there? But you, you explained that this is where the magic happens. Because I'm, I'm questioning and I'm, I'm opening my mind to other possibilities. Like, hey, why might. This is a good. This is a good 360 question, actually, is when people get 360 feedback, the question I always like to ask is, why would someone say that about you? Right? Why? Why? What if it's true? True. What if they're. Or for them, it's totally true. That's the perspective. What's making them think that? And that's. To me, that's this. I'm unsure where this is coming from. Let me get inside myself a little bit and ask, what are they seeing? And let's analyze this a little bit. [00:55:37] Speaker C: What I find in the unsure, too, is that we, we won't accept people to our certification that haven't had three or four or five deep failures in their career. We feel like there's a humility in this, and it's not a humility of I'm not good at anything. I think humility, the true definition is knowing your strengths and glorying in them like a stallion, like, knows its strengths and is able to run and be strong and directed. But there's also, as coaches, we. We know that a way of showing vulnerability is not coming with a certain set agenda for the call. It's to say, what do you know? What do you think? What more is there? And to lead with curiosity instead of certainty. And that's where that kind. That's why I see Quadrant 3 as a glorious space. And I'm so glad you could read the obvious labels I have on the model to say, maybe not everybody's seeing that it's good. [00:56:32] Speaker B: Well, that's why you gotta. That's why, that's why you're here. That's why we're doing this. We want people to understand it because this is a helpful. This is a very helpful framework. And the question we always Ask and. [00:56:45] Speaker C: Well, there's one more thing, if I could, because you did leave an open story loop for people. The EWTS coaching stands for exactly what to say. [00:56:54] Speaker B: Coaching exactly what to say. [00:56:56] Speaker C: Phil Jones wrote a book called exactly what to say, which has gone on to sell over half a million and a half copies and is really helpful in helping people remember basics of communication theory and strategy and just how to communicate. Get out of your own head and communicate from another person's perspective and remove barriers that you're unintentionally putting up. So he does the training. He does. And he has guides like myself. I'm certified as a guide to help train people. But he asked Emily and I. He likes the way we do coaching, leading with curiosity. And so he's asked us to train coaches and provide coaching for people that want to put. Put the training they've learned into their daily conversations. [00:57:37] Speaker B: Oh, man. [00:57:37] Speaker C: That's what that comes. [00:57:38] Speaker B: That sounds exciting. In the, in the emotional intelligence world, we call that holistic communication where I'm communicating with that kind of, that kind of purpose. I'm uploading and downloading information, including non verbal and emotional. And I'm really paying attention to what the other person's saying, thinking, not saying, expressing that. [00:57:59] Speaker C: Oh, that's so good. Okay. [00:58:00] Speaker B: And so it's a little bit of, it sounds like a little bit of, of a paradox or a play on words because exactly what to say sounds scripted when in reality it's not at all what you're describing. [00:58:12] Speaker C: That is. Yeah, you're. So you just put the, your, your finger on that. That is one of the things that I, I was not a fan of the work at first because it was Dale Carnegie and other things that I'd read growing up. But the. When I started sharing it with people, I've had CEOs like the four cornerstones of conversational excellence. One. One of them is people do things for their own reasons, not yours. And I thought, how trite. Of course we know that. But I've had CEOs and leadership courses come up to me after the keynote and say, I totally forgot that. Thank you. I have not at all a clue what their reasons for doing things are. And I need to meet with my direct reports and I really appreciate that. So some of the things that are so simple, what I love about it is it's like an oil change. You need to come back and get it refreshed and recheck in with the basics. [00:59:03] Speaker B: So good. This is good stuff. Yeah. We need to make it not as Long between episodes with you, at least between conversations, whether we record them or not, that's something else. But this is really. This is really good. I love talking with you, Mark. And I learn from you every time I do. And man, you're. You're. You're definitely on. You're beyond. So far beyond the just standard fare. Hire a coach. I mean, this is. This is you. You have such a context of both experience and care and understanding and knowledge and intellect. They all come together with you and I. It's one of the things I really do appreciate about you. I have two questions you'll. You might remember these from episode 24, but it's been a while. Maybe. Maybe you come up with something different. [00:59:58] Speaker C: I don't remember the answers, but. [00:59:59] Speaker B: Okay, well, no cheating. You can't go back and listen. But I'll ask you again. I like to ask these questions. Who is a leader in your life that comes to mind? This could be someone you know, don't know, they don't know. You could be a family, whatever. A leader in your life that you. That immediately comes to mind when you think about someone who's had a really profound impact on how you view leadership and leadership lead. Who is that and why? [01:00:29] Speaker C: So in the context of this recording, not having known what I said, remember what I said before. My father comes to mind. We just lost him at 82 years old just a few months ago. And unpacking all his. His impact on me, I. I grew up with him being really good at. He was always studying. My mom was always studying too. That's why they assigned us home work. But he was also really influential and committed to people around him. Then he went through this phase where he got weird. Like he stopped learning and he started getting really insular and angry and not the guy I noticed. Like I didn't recognize him for a while. But in his will he changed it all. Like he went back to the guy I remember. He made sure we have. I have a bonus sister that we found out later in the life through 23andMe. And he made sure that she was. She, myself and the sister I grew up with were all worded in ways that nobody had primary order. Like he made sure he was intentional about that and then he is intentional that her grand. Her kids were mentioned, that his sister's grandkids were. Two of them were mentioned. And even that our trans son, Transun was able to be named by his name, not the name that was given to him at birth. Like he was so intentional in ways that we didn't expect that. The legacy of love is what I know he'd want. And we are able to have warm feelings and just really relook at some of the things the last few years through a different lens. So I have a lot to unpack always. I've got a big chart here about my leader's journey from all the different decades of my life. Who are the leaders? Who are the impacts? But dad shows up in so many of them because there are so many things that he taught me. [01:02:25] Speaker B: That's solid. Where do you think he would have assessed on your survey, on your leadership style assessment? [01:02:32] Speaker C: Good question. He flowed through all of them. I can see parts of his life where he was throwing flowing through all of them. I think he would have been a really, a really great example, now that you mentioned, of a transactional leadership. He always knew what his output was and he always knew. He always had stats to whenever he was saying something with his partners. He often had four or five partners in his practice. He was able to back up his statements with data. But there was a huge servant heart. His care for people was profound. And even with this stuff I saw, I'm learning stuff now that I had no clue that he was doing. So. [01:03:15] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, wow. All right, last question. You're at the top of a mountain. All the leaders of the world are at the bottom of the mountain, but you have a megaphone and they can all hear you and they're listening to what Mark Pittman believes is the most important tenet of leadership for. For all leaders to think of. The 15 second Mark Pittman soundbite on leadership. If you had that microphone, what would you tell all the leaders of the world? [01:03:43] Speaker C: World, never stop learning. As soon as we ossify with what we think we know, the world's moved beyond us and we start becoming irrelevant and not serving at the capacity we think we are. [01:04:01] Speaker B: Okay, that was rich. And you did it in 15 seconds. Most people can't do that, by the way. [01:04:05] Speaker C: Phew. [01:04:06] Speaker B: You did it really well. Never stop learning. And Mark, I learned today, so thank you. That's a gift and you're giving that gift in spades to the world. So thank you. I want to direct people to the website concordleadershipgroup.com just like it sounds, concordleadershipgroup.com and take the assessment. Learn a little bit about yourself. I did it. It's seriously, it's three minutes if that. It's real easy, but yet very insightful and profound in its learning. Mark. Thanks again, listeners. [01:04:47] Speaker C: Thank you. [01:04:48] Speaker B: We will see you here next time. Lead on.