Episode 136 - Resilience with Russell Harvey

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to the Leadership window podcast with Dr. Patrick Jenks. Each week through a social sector lens, Patrick interviews leaders and experts and puts us in touch with trends and tips for leading effectively. Patrick is a board certified executive coach, a member of the Forbes Coaches Council, a best selling author, award winning photographer and a professional speaker. And now, here's Dr. Patrick Jenks. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Hello everyone. Hey everyone. Welcome to episode 136 of the Leadership Window. Glad you're here. Got a really great guest and for some reason, and I don't know, maybe this kind of comes in waves, you know, Our last episode was with Scott Mountz talking about the Mentally Strong Leader and his book the Mentally Strong Leader. And we talked about mental strength and his framework for that and how it ties in with emotional intelligence, but that it's not quite the same as emotional intelligence. Our guest today is going to hit yet another dimension of this which is resilience. We're going to talk a little bit about resilience. He is known as the resilience coach. In fact, that is his website theresiliancecoach.co.uk that's right. Comes to us from the UK. He's based there in Yorkshire. His name is Russell Harvey and he is of course a resilience coach. He's a facilitator, he's a public speaker and podcaster and program creator. Really helping individuals since around 2012, helping both individuals and teams build resilience. And that's a term you've heard a lot on this show and you know, I've got a sort of a philosophy around it and some also some additional questions as I continue to learn more about the term. But Russell's, Russell has a goal here that's actually on his website and I'm intrigued by it. And so Russell, when you clean up my introductory mess and tell us what we really need to know about you, I'm also going to ask you to tell us a little bit about this goal to positively affect 100,000 people by the year 2025, which of course we're now in. And the website at the time, at least it's probably, I'm sure it's updated now by you're about to impact, positively affect more people through this episode. But you were around 77,000 or so at this point in time. So yeah, tell us a little more about yourself. How did you come into this work and tell us about where this goal comes from. [00:02:41] Speaker C: Thank you, Patrick, really nice to be here. Thank you. So right this second, as of this morning, and I only managed to add A few more to do. It is 82315ish. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Wow. [00:02:54] Speaker C: It's the case. [00:02:55] Speaker B: And how are you. How do you count that? Like, what are you counting when you. When you, like, what is. What is a positively affected life? Define that. [00:03:03] Speaker C: Yeah. And so that's where a lot of who I am and what I want to do comes from. So my desire is to be a resilience role model and be authentic and actually apply to myself all the things that I talk about. But the positively effect is that this is absolutely nothing to do with my ego, Patrick. I promise, okay? I'm not arrogant enough to think that everybody I meet, you know, it loves and adores me. That's just not the case. But it's out. My intention is that with everybody I interact with, I want the given opportunity to have a light bulb moment, a realization moment, an aha moment essentially around, oh, do you know what? I can put that into practice. Or they go from confused face or like frowny face or unhappy face, so they go to relaxed face or oh, right. So I can go away from it a day and implement. I'm right. I can make my life better. Okay. And so it's essentially get out of bed every day seeing how I can do that. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Wow. So what? So what I'm curious though, what constitutes a check mark? Like when. When we. When do you say, I'm going to add to the number. What. What constitutes an addition to the number? [00:04:24] Speaker C: Yeah, so some of it is a little bit finger in the air of like. So I actually can't remember exactly how many years ago this started as the purpose, but it's. I have individual clients, I facilitate sessions to large groups of people and I go on podcasts and I've got a radio show and I talk to people and you get feedback. So from that, of the thousands of things that I've done, just sat down a few times and go, okay, so if we just put something rough to it about how many people have got it. And also when I very first started to say it, because I wanted to be a resilience role model, and I say, you need a purpose. And then somebody said, what's yours, Russell? And I went, oh, heck, I'm not sure I've got one. So that's when I actually created it. And then I was surprised at the number of reactions that I got. And I still get. Some people went, oh, get you. You're arrogant. That's why I said, yeah, that was. That was a response somebody else. It took me a while to Understand what they were saying. Somebody else said, add me to the list. And I was going, what you want? What you on about? And they said, russell, your list. Add me to it. [00:05:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I was like, oh, oh, you've positively affected me. Yeah. [00:05:36] Speaker C: It's like you've. And the other bit as well is that somebody else said, well, do you know what, Russell, by you positively affecting me, I'm going to go away from here today and I'm going to change my behaviors and I'm going to positively affect somebody else. So ripple effect. [00:05:51] Speaker B: It's so cool because it doesn't mean, you know. And you didn't say people fall madly in love with you or adore you. You said you positively affect their life. And that. That is done in small ways more often than it's done in big ways. One, I asked my coaches this question a lot. I ask them, when anyone leaves an interaction with you, do they feel taller or smaller? [00:06:21] Speaker C: Yeah. Brilliant. [00:06:22] Speaker B: And the other question I ask is, when you walk into a room, do you turn the light on or do you turn it off? Does it. Is there. Is there an energy you're bringing into the room? Are you sapping it all up and bringing in negative energy? It's little things. It's a smile in the, you know, passing someone in the hallway or it's a positive word of encouragement or a. A card in the mail or great value because I sat through one of your webinars or I got some coaching from you. It can be all kinds of things. What a great marker. I love it. I don't. I don't know how. I don't know how anybody would interpret that as arrogant because the ideas you're trying to give. [00:07:02] Speaker C: Well, yes, I. So I was surprised at the variety of responses. I started to care, and it's just like that was one of them. And it was like, okay, fine. You no problem with that at all. Do you think that's arrogant? Okay, all right. It's not my intention, but that's the way that you've taken it, so. So be it. [00:07:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Those people are jealous. Okay. I don't know what it is. People interpret things differently, but I know. I really appreciate it. How did you come into this work? Why? Resilience? Where did. Where did this come from, you know, originally, do you think? [00:07:35] Speaker C: Yeah. So the introduction was great, by the way. I don't. I don't need to add to it. So thank you. You know, you did well where all this came from. So it's. There's two things I've Always been absolutely fascinated by human behavior, how we come do the things that we do. And then I was part of around the World trip, travel around the world this year with my lovely wife and I was teaching in Hong Kong and some magic was happening in the room and at the time I didn't know what the magic was. I was just going, there's something wonderful going on here. I think I want to do this for a living, but I'm not sure what it is. When I came back from the uk, it was like I'd worked out, it was people learning, having their light bulb moments. So this was in 1997, having the light bulb moments. I want to do this for a living, but I don't want to be a teacher in a school. That blueprint in my head just wasn't it for me. And at the time I would go back to the recruitment agencies in the UK and go, I think I want to be a business trainer. I think the job title is business trainer. And they'll go, well, what do you know and what you qualified in? And I went, well, nothing. And now I just, I just know I want to do it. So there became my career. So whilst taking a sales job, coming back from traveling, I went to night school and did, you know, certificate in training practice and then so a whole career in learning and development and essentially I'm a facilitator and a coach. And my last permanent role was at the co op group in Manchester in the uk and not long after I joined it. This is roughly timeline wise, about 15ish years ago, everything fell on everybody's heads. The business was in phenomenally difficult financial trouble and all of my clientele were me and a whole team of others, senior leaders. Literally everybody came to with their head in their hands and went, the world's full on our heads. And I went, yeah, I've been looking into this word, resilience and I've been looking at this, an acronym of vuca and literally all of our answers are in there. And so I, when I knew that at some stage I might leave the co op because he's gone through so much change, redundancies, bringing people in and my time might come and it did. And it was that moment ago, you know what, I feel right and ready to go off by myself and I set up the resilience coach. And then when it came time to do my purpose, I linked 1997 to purpose, to light bulb, to positively affect, to resilience. That's how I came to where I am today. [00:10:11] Speaker B: I'll tell you what I relate to on that, that resonates with me is, you know, the idea that you're not an expert in any sort of necessary field of business, but you're an expert at training, and that's where your gift lies. And that's what I've loved about coaching. I have to really tell my prospective clients when they call and want strategic planning. For example, I do strategic planning in the nonprofit sector and. But I'm not an expert in housing and homelessness or in early childhood education or in public health or in the arts or whatever it is. What I'm an expert at is synthesis, at facilitating holding space, asking the right questions, framing, helping teams bring their best thought and get it out and get it clear, their aspirations, their goals, their challenges, their solutions. And so it doesn't matter the sector. I'm coaching people in the pharmaceutical, you know, field. I'm coaching people in the manufacturing field. I'm coaching people in conservation, and I'm not an expert in any of those things. But your gift is training. And is that. Does that come from childhood? You. Did you always like to, like, explain things or be. Did you like to be on a stage where you're in front of people? I mean, is that. Is that part of where you think the deeper thing comes from? [00:11:41] Speaker C: Well, interestingly, I. So I do talk about facilitation rather than training, but, yeah, pedantic. So just, you know, splitting airs. But I. Actually, part of my growing up to childhood is that I was in an amateur dramatic society, so I'm okay being on stage, you know, so that is not necessarily quite answering your question, but that. [00:12:09] Speaker B: No, it absolutely is. And I asked because, again, I'm. I'm relating to a lot of that. I grew up in a gospel singing family. We were on. Stop. Been on stage since I was, you know, and when I say on stage, I mean, you know, I'm on. I'm. There's. Somebody is expecting some sort of performance from me. Even if it's, again, a training or a webinar or a coaching session, I consider that to be. And so I'm finding more and more trainers, facilitators, coaches who. Who really are comfortable in that spot. And it's not that I want to be in the limelight, it's just I'm comfortable in that spot and not everybody is. So it's a gift. [00:12:42] Speaker C: No, no, it is the most. It's most definitely a level of comfortableness. Yes. You know, so there's a few times my dad would ask Me. So just tell me again, you know, a bit what. What you do, and then sometimes say, well, today I'm here in front of these people doing this, or I'm doing a speech like that, or I'm running a session with these guys in and I'll doing this. And he just goes, that just makes me feel sick. You know, he. Bless him twice. He was asked to be a best man by two friends and had to pull out twice because it just, you know, because he couldn't give the best. [00:13:11] Speaker B: Man speech at the reception. [00:13:14] Speaker C: So he couldn't do it. He couldn't do it. Essentially, I've done it twice. So there we go. So, yeah, so it has. It's always interesting me. There's some times where I've been stood up in front a group of people and my brain is going, everybody's looking at you, Russell. And my brain's going, why are they looking at me? And I go, oh, golly, because you're stood up and they're expecting you to do something. [00:13:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:34] Speaker C: Oh, right, right. Yes. Okay. I'm running this session. Right, okay. It's just. Yeah, I'm comfortable stood up there. [00:13:40] Speaker B: That's awesome. Because people look for that. Somebody has to fill the gap. You know, there can't be a vacuum and people want. So people look around, they go, oh, Russell's got this. Russell. Let's. Let's listen to Russell. That's awesome. I want to get into the term resilience. You and I talked a little bit about this offline. I think you define it a little more deeply and. And quite frankly, in a way that resonates more with me than. Than a lot of people around the term and how they define it. But let me just ask you, how do. How are you defining resilience to coach people on resilience? What are we even talking about? [00:14:16] Speaker C: So what we are talking about, Patrick, is springing forward with learning. So just say again for everybody. Springing forward with learning. That for me, when somebody's being a resilience role model, they are doing that essentially. So they're making the decision and the choice as part of their lives to engage with their learning around their resilience. So the learning and the reflection is against this thing called the resilience wheel that I have, which is a builder load of loads of research. So you are reflecting and learning and re. Energizing against your personal wheel. There's seven aspects to it, and I'm sure we will talk about them shortly. But it's an actionable thing that you make the decision and choice to pause from all of life's events, whether good or not so good. And make the decision to pause, which is listening to a podcast, which is going for a walk, which is having a great conversation with a friend, which is reading a book, which is going to, you know, the cinema. They're all pauses. And in those pauses, you're finding ways to restore yourself, recuperate, re, energize and reflect. And the three questions that you ask yourself when you are pausing, reflecting are, what am I? Have I been doing behaviorally recently that has been serving me well. What have I been doing behaviorally recently that has not been serving me well? And how do I do more of the answers to the first question? Essentially that. So it's, it's. It's a choice. It's proactive resilience, Patrick, is how I want people to think a bit. I'm not a fan of the term bounce back because we can't go back. It's like, how would you like to move forward in your life? And when the individuals do that, then they get into. More often they get into thrive rather than staying in, coping and surviving. [00:16:20] Speaker B: It's back to our favorite quote that seems to show up on this show every. Almost every time the. The. The Greek philosopher Heraclitus. A man cannot step into the same river twice because he's not the same man. And it's not the same river. You know, it's. You can, you can't. Everything has changed in the last five seconds. Everything has changed. And what I also, what I love about what you just said is that resilience is a choice. It's not a, it's not a natural thing that some people have and some people don't. Not based on the description you just gave. It's a choice. And I like that. It's empowering. But a lot of people don't know they have that choice, I think. Right. [00:16:59] Speaker C: No, they don't. So I know we, we are born with what we're born with. You know, we will have a level of resilience that there are. There's different pieces of research about how you can grow resilience even if you have a challeng upbringing come back to in a. In a second. But I just. Yeah, unfortunately, people don't necessarily engage with this word resilience until something really unpleasant happens to them. And I'm of the view of like, well, why wait for the unpleasant thing to happen? You know, how. Why don't you make the choice now to go right Then I'm going to proactively choose to develop my resilience. And the benefits of that are exponent work. One of the many benefits is our. Is like how you might actually view an unpleasant experience will be very different to if you hadn't done anything about it. [00:17:54] Speaker B: That. See now. Okay, now, now we're in it. [00:17:57] Speaker C: That, that, that, that face that hit me. [00:18:02] Speaker B: Well, because the word, when we, when I think of the word, I think just the, the, the regular word, resilience, it connotes a bounce back and bounce back not meaning, you know, I go backwards, but it means I re. I recover to my original state. Like I, I was, I was doing okay, A bad thing happened and I bounced back, meaning I'm back to where I was. And you're talking about go beyond where you were. [00:18:31] Speaker C: Yes. [00:18:32] Speaker B: And not, not despite the challenge, but because of the challenge. [00:18:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:38] Speaker B: And so I really like that. But because the term resilience, the prefix is re. So it's like, you know, like, like a reimagining, a resetting. But you're talking about in a preventative or a proactive way. Where I'm developing a, an armor of resilience. This is it for future to, to be able to, to withstand the challenges that are going to come in. That's just. [00:19:09] Speaker C: This is it. [00:19:10] Speaker B: I love that framing. [00:19:11] Speaker C: And I don't, I don't think it'll, it won't necessarily translate to the United States. But there's an old advert, so there's a, there was a product, I think it's still around, called Ready Breck, which is like porridge. Okay. But that, but they had the TV advert probably from the 1980s, 1990s, was that there was a kid that was eating their porridge and, and going on the way to school. But as they were eating this porridge, they suddenly got this orange glow of an armor around them. And then, so that, and then they opened their front door and it was raining and it was miserable. But they were walking through all of this with this orange glow protecting them. So that's the analogy. When you build and grow your resilience, you will. You. Absolutely. You are building an armor of how you're going to face into the world. [00:19:58] Speaker B: So I want to share something and you get your take on it. When I say you just, you define resilience differently than most people. It. I have found that you are defining resilience the way Nassim Nicholas Taleb, okay, defines anti. Fragile. So he, he talks about. This is. I think, I think the book he wrote a book called Antifragile. Things that Gain From Disorder was the subtitle to it. And the idea was that there's. There's a mostly philosophical but somewhat scientific concept of fragility, which is I'm weak. I don't have what it takes to bounce back or spring forward. I'm. I've got a weakness or I'm vulnerable. And he says that resilience is often what people think is the opposite of that, but it's not. It's anti fragility, which is you don't. Again, just like you're saying, you don't just bounce back, you spring forward to a. An even greater place. And there's a couple things he says. I just want to get your reaction to this. I love this. Taleb says fragility breaks under pressure. Resilience resists pressure. Antifragility thrives under pressure. [00:21:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:30] Speaker B: And he says wind is. Wind extinguishes a candle, but it energizes a fire. [00:21:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:38] Speaker B: And so I, again, I'm. I'm affirming your definition of resilience is actually more. More in line with his definition of antifragility because you're trying to get people to be. To be the fire and not just a candle. [00:21:54] Speaker C: Absolutely, yes. Because on. So what? Most definitely. Because what concerns me at the moment when we talk about this word resilient, there's two. There's a few things that concerns. One of them is it seems to go into toxic resilience and toxic positivity, which really, really concerns me. So what, I mean, what is that? [00:22:11] Speaker B: Yeah. What does that mean? [00:22:12] Speaker C: Yeah. So what I've noticed there's a little too much of that. Somebody will say any variation of like, I'm struggling or this. I don't think this is right, or this is a bit challenging or this is difficult, or this is a big problem. And then literally, you know, people. I'm. People can't see it now, but I'm doing a pointy finger action. People. Then suddenly you just need to be resilient. You just need to be positive. Okay. And that drives me mad. I trick. It does. It's like, that's not where I'm coming from. So. Yeah, that was one thing. What was your. [00:22:47] Speaker B: Like, in other words, you're doing something wrong. [00:22:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So the thriving under the pressure is. Oh, yes. So the other thing is people feel that they are only being resilient when they stay in surviving and coping. Okay. That's another thing that people seem to sort of Say of like, yeah, I'm just keeping going, I'm being resilient and I'm going to. [00:23:16] Speaker B: You're just barely hanging on. [00:23:18] Speaker C: You're just barely hanging on or you're stuck in it. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Oh, that's so good. [00:23:22] Speaker C: And it's, it's really challenging to, you know, when, whilst people are struggling, you know, I want to say, as the coach or the whatever to say, just come over here, you, you need to, you need to chat. Come, come over here. You know, we need to get you off your hamster wheel or off your pain point, and we need to just engage with you, to just enable you to just build a bit of resilience so that you can make a choice about are you even going to get back on the hamster wheel or actually you're gonna just walk around it or what else are you going to do? So people sort of say, yeah, I'm facing into challenges, I'm keeping going, I'm hanging on, I'm being resilient. Don't talk to me about resilience because I'm being it. And I'm, I'm going, oh, how do I find a way to, to engage with you right now? Because I believe you need some help. [00:24:15] Speaker B: You know, I'll tell you what, what it makes me think of is, is the, is the age old? How does that make you feel? Question. Like, you know, I'm being resilient and how's it working out for you? Right? How is, how is that, you know, talk to me about the, the forward movement that that's bringing you and that. [00:24:37] Speaker C: Goes all the way back to, you know, the individual that chooses to engage with their resilience. You know, what behaviors am I doing right now that are helping me and what behaviors am I doing right now that are harming me? So the individual that's just keeping going, I'm concerned that the behaviors that they're doing are harming them because it's in their comfort zone. And comfort is. Zone is not always comfortable. [00:25:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:01] Speaker C: Painful, you know? [00:25:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, so you, you do have a framework. You referenced it a moment ago, the framework that you call the resilience wheel. So moving from the hamster wheel to the resilience wheel. Absolutely. But, but, and, and maybe, maybe this is a good time for you just to refer to the model and the framework. But my question for you then is, what does resilience coaching look like? What's happening in resilience coaching? I know what leadership coaching looks like. I know what health coaching looks like, or even Wellness coaching, maybe. But what does resilience, what. What differentiates resilience coaching from other forms of the coaching discipline? [00:25:48] Speaker C: Yeah. So for me there's I interchange about. So I'm the resilience coach, but actually I'm a leadership coach. So this framework you can apply to yourself personally, you can apply it to leadership, you can apply it to teams, and I'm, you know, toying around playing with you, you can actually apply to organizations as well. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Okay, I'm gonna ask you about that in a minute too, so. Good. I'm glad you said that. [00:26:09] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. So seven aspects to the resilience wheel. And I must attribute, you know, it's a build upon all free work from Robertson Cooper, who did, you know, research put it into the world. So I've just added to it. So if anybody asked me the question, so Russell, how do I build my resilience? I go, there's this wheel, seven aspects to it, and I want you to engage with it and reflect upon it. So heart of resilience is our attitud. Resilient people have a purpose, positively affect 100000 people. The word confidence is in there. The word adaptability is in there. Cultivating the best fabulous support network is in there. And there's one as well which I've added, which is about meaning, which is our internal storytelling. What is the meaning that we are attaching to events? How are we describing our experiences? Because each description that we give is an opportunity to put a belief system and a muscle memory inside ourselves about who we are and our value system. And the final one is this word energy, which is in relation to strengths, a psychometric called strength scope. I think you're familiar with strengths finder in in the US So and when you play to your strengths, it builds natural resilience and natural confidence. And if I might just circle back to something else I mentioned a little bit earlier on, I said on that strengths thing, if research shows that an individual that may have had a challenging upbringing to a child has had difficult circumstances, if an individual, a friend, some form of adult guardian in their lives, spots that there's something that they enjoy doing and finds a way to find many opportunities for to do this thing that they enjoy doing even in difficult, challenging life circumstances, then they actually build and grow, then develop their resilience because they have been given opportunities to do this thing that they love doing. So playing to your strengths builds natural resilience and natural confidence. So one of the dimensions of so this is being confident. So and so the resilience coaching is we do the psychometric and we discuss your resilience wheel. Essentially, what are you doing to, you know, enable your confidence? What are you doing to be more open to change? And also the nuance between adaptability and agility as well. Adaptable, open to change, but not necessarily doing it. Agile, making quick decisions to actually do it. So you work on your adaptability, you improve your agility. And one final thing, some research as well from Jenny Campbell at the Resilience Engine. I don't know her, but this is her research. She has researched that those individuals that choose to spend a third of their time engaging with their adaptability, they move in to thrive. So resentments coaching is these are all the things that we look at and we keep growing and developing and nurturing your resilience wheel. And as a consequence, you face into life springing forward with loving, with learning, enjoying it a lot more. [00:29:16] Speaker B: I love that it's research based. You said something a moment ago when you were talking about meaning that reminded me of something you might have, you might have told me this or I read it on your website or something that it came from you. I think that it's not our, that it's not that the experiences, even the negative ones that have the greatest impact. It's our relationship with those experiences. It's the meaning we make of them and the learning. [00:29:49] Speaker C: Yes. [00:29:49] Speaker B: That we get from them. I think you use the word learning somewhere. I don't know where I read this, but pretty sure it was you. And, and what it reminded me of is our last episode I mentioned was Scott Mountz, who's the author of the, the. The Mentally Strong Leader. And he said the same thing about doubt, that it's not doubt. That you know, doubt is confidence is not the absence of doubt. It's. It's our relationship with doubt that gets us. And so, and then the third thing in the last, I would say six months that I've come across is stress. There's new research on stress, fairly new research on stress. We've all heard that stress is a killer. Right. It has all kinds of bad physical things. It causes heart, this and all these things, high blood pressure. The newer research says it's not the stress that's doing it, it's the way we think about stress. It's our relationship with stress that does this. And I think I'm really seeing this now for the third time probably in six months. You're the third person to bring to me a reminder that how we view the Things in our lives, doubt, stress, trauma, you know, disappointment, name, name, the negative experience. It's how we view the meaning and our relationship and our navigation of it, that, that is what's critical. And I think you're saying that's what resilience is. That's exactly what it is, the ability to do that. [00:31:20] Speaker C: It absolutely is, because that's where your reflections are. So it's getting to the habit of the agile question. We get asked loads, how are you? How's your day, how's your week, how's your project going? How's the weekend going? And we give it some answers, we tell some answers, and each one of those external verbalizations, we're also telling our brain what to think and feel and believe about ourselves, our identity, our humanity, our skill sets and who we are. So it's just being open about and noticing how you're responding and how you're answering those and then going, how helpful was it for me to describe this day in this particular way, but to reframe it. Excuse me. Yeah, you, you can't just tell yourself some lies. Okay, so if you've had a pretty awful day, and I go, I've got to reframe it now, go, right. It was brilliant. It's like, no, that's not going to work. [00:32:11] Speaker B: I learned all kinds of ways to fail today. [00:32:14] Speaker C: Yes. So around all of this as well, it's, it's also, I enjoy talking about the word optimism as a route to feeling positive. Okay. So optimism's grounded in reality, so we have to be real about actually what's going on. So if it's like the reality is these were the challenges that were faced and actually this is how I'm thinking of feeling. These are my worries and concerns, you know, hold those. Well, it's about doing that for yourself and also doing that with a team in a way that doesn't turn into a spiral of negativity. Okay, it's holding it well. But also what's grounded in reality are your qualities, your skill sets, your strengths, your current levels of resilience, your behaviors, your mindset, your attitude. That's your current reality. And when you can actually talk a little bit more about actually the graphics, the useful, helpful, good stuff, the reality of that, people then turn around and go, do you know what? I'm feeling hopeful. Oh, actually I'm feeling positive, actually. Yeah. The size of the scale is the same, of the problem is the same. But how I feel about and believe I'm going to face into it. So a question I Ask all my clients and the teams is, you've talked to me about what's going on, and I go, how optimistic are you feeling? And depending on their answer is where we go next. [00:33:36] Speaker B: Essentially, that's good. And so people can't. You mean. You described the seven elements of the wheel. The visual of that is that the attitude, the resilience attitude is in the middle of the wheel. It's the hub. [00:33:51] Speaker C: It's the hub. [00:33:52] Speaker B: So it's connected to all of the other six. Purpose, confidence, adaptability, support, meaning, and energy. And that's what you're talking about. It's the attitude is the center of it all, is our approach to it. [00:34:04] Speaker C: And for me, they're all interconnected. You know, when you engage with one, it has a knock on positive benefit on another, essentially. [00:34:10] Speaker B: And it's not linear. [00:34:12] Speaker C: No. [00:34:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:34:14] Speaker C: No. When were human beings linear, Patrick? When did that, when did that happen? [00:34:19] Speaker B: Well, we, we tend to want to make everything linear because it get, we have, we can get that. Like we, we, we. We make reference out of linear things. You know, I do this in strategic planning all the time. You got these linear pillars or you got the cycles of coaching, or you've got. And they're not, they're not linear. They're interrelated, I think was the word you. Good, good word. So you mentioned individuals and teams, and that's how you promote your work. Beyond being resilient themselves, how do leaders build resilient organizations? This resilience wheel is these are things we can control individually. Right? I can find meaning and purpose. I have some control over my confidence and adaptability on that. But when I'm leading an organization, how do I inculcate these characteristics and attitude into an entire organization? Because I can tell you, our listeners to this show right now, that's what they're dealing with, and they're not dealing with it so much right now in a proactive way here in the United States. You may or may not be aware, the nonprofit sector here, a third, A third of the revenue of the nonprofit sector in the US Is federally funded by our government. And our, our current presidential administration is making some pretty severe cuts to where to where the federal government funds the nonprofit sector. So it's got the sector scrambling here. And much like Covid did, it's a similar feeling in this sector. I think it affects other sectors as well, but it really is hitting our social sector really strongly. And so when we went through Covid, everyone talked about resilience differently. It was a. How do we bounce Back or for the really healthy ones, it was, how do we spring forward for the really healthy ones? They weathered the storm of COVID because they had been behaving in a resilient manner according to your model. But, but right now I think everyone listening would say, yeah, how do I create a resilient organization? And what are the similarities? [00:36:34] Speaker C: So it's still to absolutely, to start with, it is about the humans. Okay, so this is less about withstanding, you know, cyber attacks, resilient systems and processes. So I'm out there a lot of the time, you know, poking a few bears, going, so resilient people equals a resilient organization. Question mark. Who, who wants to come and discuss that with me? You know, and, and that is where a lot of the answer is to this. Now you, you can, you can turn up to an organization and go, how optimistic is your organization? You can ask that question of a, of a senior leadership team or any set of people, and their response will be absolutely intertwined with their current mental picture of like, how all the humans are behaving and thinking and feeling and what they're saying and what they're doing. You've got to do a bit of a finger in the air and a blueprint and go, oh, yeah, they're doing this. You know, how optimistic is your, is your organization? So it is, to start with, it is about taking all of the humans in your organization and go, so what's our organizational purpose? And I don't mean necessarily about meeting the KPIs, okay? It's actually, it's not about vision, mission and values. It's actually all these humans in this organ. This, what's our purpose? And isn't it actually to enable all of us to be at our best? And so that's, you know, what we're thinking about around this. And it's like, what's the attitude of the organization? How supportive are we of each other? And how are we enabling ourselves to have optimistic, emotionally intelligent conversations? And has, is everybody in organization when they come in and do their job role, are they playing to their strengths? So that's a starting point from a leadership point of view. When I engage with leaders, one of the things I try and do, because I say their heads are full and they don't know what to do. And I just. So, right, you're only responsible for three things as a leader. And I go, really? You go, yeah, literally just three. I go, what are they? Okay, I go, delegate brilliantly to people's strengths. Remove the blockages to Your people performing and develop, grow and build resilient teams. You are responsible for three things. So if you look at all of the meetings and the things that you've got in front of you and all of the activities that you're doing day to day, if there's something in your diary which doesn't meet one of those three things is shouldn't be there now to implement that is way easier said than done. I can sit here and go, that's what you need to do. But actually when you start to do that, the whole mindset and attitude of the humans in the organization shifts so that organizationally with systems, instructions and processes, because it's the humans that create them, they start to shift and change as well. That's my short answer. [00:39:51] Speaker B: Oh, it's, you know, and as I'm looking, as you're talking, I'm looking back over the, the wheel. [00:39:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:58] Speaker B: And I can absolutely. All you have to do is just think of these terms at a systemic or organizational construct. What's the purpose of the organization? Why are you here and who do you serve? What. What's the value you're creating? Is the organization a confident organization? Does it. You and the staff. Do you. Do you have a history of success that you lean on and, and, and know. And adaptability. Oh my goodness. Organizational adaptability. That's a thing. I do have a question for you. Give us a little more the difference between purpose and meaning. Because I think as people look at those two things, they can sound very similar. Talk about those two again. [00:40:42] Speaker C: Yeah. So. And I, I'm just do keep thinking about maybe tweaking this. But then it's like, you know, I've got to go through every bit of branding and changing the word. So this is our internal storytelling. So. And help me out here. And then everybody's listening if there's a better way of saying it. So it's the meaning that we are attaching to our things that happen to us. Life events. So it's like I've added some meaning to this situation. So it's. What's the meaning that you've added? Because how are you describing it? How are you thinking and feeling about it in that moment in time? That is your, your meaning. It's not the meaning of life type thing. The purpose is what am I here for essentially. [00:41:26] Speaker B: Yep. [00:41:26] Speaker C: Does that help? [00:41:28] Speaker B: It does. And the, and the only. My only reaction to it. Yeah. It definitely differentiates the meaning that we attach to the event, whatever that event is. Right. The only, the only thing is that I'M curious now as to how that, how that stretches into forward thinking because the meaning we're attaching to the event that's happening to us is back to reactionary mode. Whereas your model is a proact, your concept of resilience is a proactive one. And so. Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud. How do we attach meaning? Maybe, you know, is there a way to attach meaning to the concept of challenging environments, not just a specific event that's happening to us in the moment? I don't know. Is it, is my question even make sense? [00:42:22] Speaker C: No. So what, what I'm thinking about, I'll go to the other question. I'm not sure what that second one was. [00:42:29] Speaker B: I don't even. [00:42:29] Speaker C: I'm going to reframing. Okay, so once again, it's about the learning. So when we've asked, answered the question, how was your day? If you say, well, it started out at 7am and I got in a car and it went downhill and everything was awful and I went to these meetings and nobody listened to me and I think I'm a paste, you know, waste of time and I don't know why I'm being there. You've literally just told your brain you're a worthless waste of space. Okay, so it's. Step one is to notice how you've answered it. Step two is to go, right, could I just pause for a moment and reflect on just how truthful that really is? And then I might go, you know what? I'm going to get some perspective because resilient people are doing in perspective. Then I might suddenly go, actually, do you know what? I passed Patrick in the corridor and he went, russell, you're all right. And I went, ah. Patrick noticed that I was looking back, right? Okay, My day wasn't that awful. And you know what? I've just remembered that I went to meeting after Patrick and somebody actually listened to me. Oh, okay. So my day wasn't as awful as I thought it was. You get perspective on the day, so you reframe and you learn about the response, the meanings that you're attaching and you, you attached more helpful meanings to that day. [00:43:52] Speaker B: That is very helpful to my question because now what you're doing is you're built, you're conditioning yourself to learn how to attach meanings and that is what prepares you for future things you don't even know are coming. [00:44:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:07] Speaker B: So good. I love the clarity that you bring to. This is really good. We, we could, we could take another three hours and unpack this as I know, but then we'd have to start charging people for it. Right. I really do appreciate this, Russell, and I want to encourage people again to go and, and check out the different tools and things that you have, including the resilience wheel and the different ways that you can help people. Theresiliancecoach.co.uk is the website. Russell. I like to ask all my guests a couple of questions and I just love the answers and the stories I get. They're always inspiring and so I'd like to ask them to you. The first one that I have for you is who comes to mind as a leader in your life, who you would say has had profound influence on your leadership and your view of leadership and why. And this can be someone that you've never even met or it can be, you know, a close relative or whoever it is, but who, who immediately comes to mind and why? [00:45:17] Speaker C: So it is my wife. Essentially. She, she is an incredibly values driven individual, phenomenally passionate. She's a te. She's incredibly. She believes in fairness and justice. She can't stand injustice. And over the decades she's taught me to be a better human being. So that's, that's the profoundness about it. [00:45:42] Speaker B: Wow. [00:45:44] Speaker C: The additional bit while she comes up is in the last couple of years she has become exceptionally unwell and I have been her carer. But how she has managed to navigate through that I also admire her for. So it's, it's my wife. [00:46:00] Speaker B: Boy, it sounds like she's inspired this model a lot. [00:46:03] Speaker C: She has talked about. [00:46:05] Speaker B: That's tremendous. Our best to her. That's a great, that's a, it's very inspirational. The last question I'll ask you as we wrap the show. If you are on the top of a mountain with a megaphone and all the leaders of the world are at the bottom of the mountain listening to what you're about to say. And you've got 15 seconds to tell the world of leaders. The most important thing to keep in mind about leadership. What is The Russell Harvey 15 second soundbite on leadership? [00:46:33] Speaker C: So I've said it already. It's like you're only responsible for three things. Delegate brilliantly, remove the blockages to your people performing and make the decision and choice to build and grow and develop a resilient team. Three things. That's what you're there for all day, every day. [00:46:53] Speaker B: Brilliant. It's one of the things we try to do in our organization is simplify the complex. And you just did it masterfully. And I want to say again. I just love the fact that resilience is a choice. I want to. I want to just end on that note, Russell, thank you. I appreciate it. I hope you'll reach out to Russell, learn more about what he's doing, and we'll see you here next time on the leadership window. Lead on.