Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to the Leadership window podcast with Dr. Patrick Jenks. Each week through a social sector lens, Patrick interviews leaders and experts and puts us in touch with trends and tips for leading effectively. Patrick is a board certified executive coach, a member of the Forbes Coaches Council, a best selling author, award winning photographer and a professional speaker.
And now, here's Dr. Patrick Jenks.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Hello everyone. Hello and welcome to episode 137.
It's the middle of 2025, it's June, can't believe it, moving fast and guess what, it's only going to get faster. So I don't know, I guess we'll talk faster.
I truly do not have the time today to adequately introduce today's guests. We have two guests today, but I will tell you, I am incredibly honored to have them both. We have Dr. Aman Gohal and we have Bill Pullen. And before I get into them individually, let me, let me just kind of tell you a quick story of how I came to know them. Many of you know that I recently completed a really amazing, I would say transformational certification program in systemic team coaching. And I did this with Dr. Peter Hawkins, who's a guru in that field. And, and it was an eight month global program with hundreds of coaches from all over the world. And I just can't say enough about it. One of the components used in teaching us the idea of coaching teams was the concept that was new to me of vertical development, adult development, particularly vertical development and the way that it was.
We were basically just introduced to the concept and we were introduced to an amazing, very comprehensive, very unique assessment that goes along with that, that helps leaders understand sort of where they are in the vertical development continuum and what that means and what the implications are for their leadership and their teams. And it was just, it was fascinating, it was useful, it was valuable. And I immediately thought, I want to be able to use that assessment and I want to be able to help leaders understand their vertical development as well as their horizontal development. Don't worry, we're going to get into that and what the difference is.
And so I thought I got to do this. So I went and checked it out and you can become practitioner certified to be able to administer the assessment used. The assessment is called My Worldview and it's a tool of Global Leadership Associates or gla and they've got a virtual option or they've got an in person two day training option.
And I love the in person stuff. If you know me, you know that I really try to resist the virtual stuff as much as possible.
So I Made the trip to D.C.
and got involved in this, in this certification again, separate from Dr. Hawkins program that I was going through when I did. The first thing we did before we met in person is we met virtually, virtually just to introduce everybody and get to know the faculty who of course are Bill and Aman, my guests today.
And as I'm reading everybody's profiles and they're talking about, you know, their reason for coming in, I quickly realized I'm this outsider coming into this group of people who seem to all already know each other. I'm like, how do you all know each other? I just came across this from my deal and I barely know my own, you know, practicum in this program. How do you know each other? And as it turned out, so many of the, I don't know, there was 25 or 30 people in the, in the class with us in D.C.
and many of them had already worked with Bill and or Aman, many of them through a certification, a leadership coaching certification program at Georgetown, where they've both been heavily involved in that. And there may have been some other things that they've been involved in with them too. But when I showed up in D.C.
i immediately understood why Bill and Aman were viewed as revered celebrities. And they really were. The people that were there knew them, loved them, they just felt like celebrities. I'm like, I got to get to know these people. And boy, watching them experiencing their facilitation and training and coaching over a two day period as a team with each other was really remarkable. She's so impressive. I'm really not blowing smoke here. I came home and told my wife, said, man, this was worth the trip.
And so that's how I got to know them.
And now when I see them somewhere down the line, I'll be one of those people that goes, hey, Bill, Hey, I'm on. And I'll. And everybody will be jealous of me.
So that was it. Let me just real quickly. Bill Pullen coaches executives worldwide. Both of them do.
And in addition to being a coach, he's a teacher, a consultant, a facilitator, he's a writer. He knows which hat though, to put on at what time. He's amazing at all of it. He's coached, fortunately, 100 executives. He's trained countless other coaches. He holds the International Coaching Federation's highest certification as a master coach with icf.
He's former director of the Institute for Transformational Leadership at Georgetown where he taught leadership transformation and leadership coaching and his other certifications and other credentials. They're just simply too numerous to mention. So look him up. Look up Bill Pullen and his association with with GLA Do Dr. Aman Gohal is a senior coach and facilitator with GLA as well. And through GLA, she coaches in the White House Leadership Development Program and debriefs assessments in that arena. She's the founder of Water of Life Consulting, where she helps Fortune 500 executives expand their leadership capacity, refine decision making, create influence at scale.
She also holds the Master Certified Coach Credential with icf. She's a former director of Georgetown's coaching program. She develops programs for leaders and the coaches who support them.
And she oh yeah, there's this other little thing. She holds a doctorate in human development.
Now, I read you what, maybe a paragraph each and the rest of it would we'd have to do a whole series on their credentials. I'm serious. This is really, really, really cool to have both of you on the program. So I just want to say deep gratitude for your contributions to the coaching profession and even deeper gratitude for taking time for us here with the Leaders perspective and the Leadership Window podcast.
Welcome welcome both of you to the to the program. So glad you're here, Patrick.
[00:07:20] Speaker C: It's good to be here.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: Bill, what did I miss about Aman?
What should I have said? What do you know about her that our listeners would also be impressed or interested to know about her?
[00:07:36] Speaker C: Would they be interested to know she tells really good dad jokes, but the, the, so she's got a whole dictionary or whatever encyclopedia of dad jokes. I think what is, what is key to that is she's got an amazing ability to humor and levity and lightness to serious topics. So whether that's in coaching or teaching, she's got this amazing ability to bring a sense of levity which makes doing the hard work of leadership development possible when we can laugh at ourselves and our own humanity and laugh at others. So that is a gift that I've gotten from Iman.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: I experienced that. And it's this I wouldn't call it dry, but it's very sly humor.
You know, it's, it's not like she's standing up there as a comedian, but just the little sly remarks here and there and some, some of the things that you get and some of the things you have to think about for a second. But I know, I appreciated that, too. Amman, what did I miss about Bill that we should tell our audience?
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Well, there's a number of things, and one is that Bill is actually Pursuing a doctorate in depth psychology at the moment and I think he is on third major career. So he is also a former physical therapist as I understand it. And as I've gotten to know Bill, I am blown away by how he has scaled whatever he has done, whether it's been physical therapy and healthcare and coaching in adult development. I think he just has this gift of taking whatever he is engaged in and just really scaling it in pretty impactful ways.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Wow.
Wow. Amazing. So I know the two of you have worked a good bit together, or at least it seems like you have.
And so I know there's a lot more you could say about each other. Is there anything else about yourself that you would share with the audience that I did not share either of you?
[00:09:52] Speaker A: I have a dog named Freedom Butterscotch.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Freedom Butterscotch, I love it.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: What kind of dog is Freedom Butterscotch?
[00:10:01] Speaker A: He is a mini goldendoodle and he is very, very friendly.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: That's awesome. Bill, what about you? Anything else about you that you want our listeners to know?
[00:10:11] Speaker C: No, the one thing I know, a lot of your this, a lot of your audience are leaders in the social sector. And while I yes, as you introduced me, I do a lot of coaching in big Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies, I also do a lot of work in the social sector from small like 3 person non profit organizations to big global non profit organizations. So spend a lot of time in the social sector and have, have a special place in my heart for leaders who are leading in the social sector because I think it's, I often say they're doing, they're doing God's work and they're doing important work and trying to help people. So I really honor leaders in that space.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: That, that is awesome. And so I'll ask a sort of impromptu question of you here.
As you work in the social sector and in the corporate sector and you're coaching leaders, what about those two sectors when it comes to leadership would you say is different and what about it? I mean how much of it is, you know, it's leadership is leadership doesn't matter the sector, it's the same stuff versus no, the nonprofit sector is really pretty unique and it's a very different coaching engagement. How would you describe that?
[00:11:29] Speaker C: Yeah, so if I start with the similarities, I mean I think there's a lot of things that are very similar. A lot of the requirements of leaders around setting vision, strategy, engaging people, building solid, building relationships with their teams.
A lot of those core capabilities of leaders are very similar.
The differences often Fall in terms of motivations, context, pressures on them. So if I'm working, most of my work these days is with people operating at the C level or one level down in organizations in the social sector, mostly C level leaders, CEOs in particular, or executive directors or however they call it in that organization. And just use a really concrete example, the pressures around what a board is asking of them is different. Like new CEOs on both sides of the whether in the social sector or in the Fortune 500 sector, corporate sector, both need to learn to manage boards. But what those boards, how those boards operate is quite different.
So there's different dynamics around that. Obviously people are working in the Fortune 100 space, have stockholder pressures and there's just different types of pressures. But so those are, those are some context is different. But the core capabilities of many of these leaders need is consistent across.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: Yeah, and listen, both of you do coaching and consulting and so maybe Aman, I'll start with you.
How do you know when you're doing which one?
When's the right time to apply the coaching, discipline and skill that you have versus a consulting.
I think if I'm not wrong, the name of your company is Water of Life Consulting.
And so how do you. Where does coaching and where does consulting fit in for you as you work with leaders?
[00:13:33] Speaker A: Yes, so the name of my company is Water of Life Coaching and Consulting.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: Coaching and Consulting.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: And I feel like I'm part of a group of coach sultans that are out there so just doing a combination of the two.
Most of my work is primarily coaching and a lot of the consulting work is actually designing and developing facilitating leadership programs.
So I would put leadership programming and leadership development, broader leadership development work into that consulting bucket.
I also have a master's in organization development and a background in organization development.
And there's just so much work that could follow under that umbrella. From cultural work to looking at how an organization is set up systemically change, transformational change.
And quite honestly, I don't do a lot of that work anymore. I primarily do coaching or designing and delivering leadership programs or coaching programs and some of the broader stuff, stuff I say like culture, people dynamics, strategy change management, they may come up as topics in the coaching or there may be a strategy team or change management team that is working on things alongside leadership development or coaching work.
And I used to do a lot of that in the beginning of my career. But right now I'm just focused on coaching and leadership consulting.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Awesome. Bill, is that a similar construct for you?
[00:15:28] Speaker C: You can't tell any of my students this.
So if you're a listener, you can't tell any of my students. I tell everybody. I use a blended coaching consulting approach. So it is not uncommon for me to bring and even in a coaching engagement, to bring perspectives, thoughts, insights, information that I, you know, models that I have that I've seen work to my coaching clients. And so that could feel a lot like consulting. I tell everybody I work with really smart leaders, and they, if they think I have a perspective on something or an idea about how to solve something, I will, I'll share that with them. And I tell them that, trusting that and working with them to then make it their own. But I think the lines, for me, the lines between these two things sometimes are probably more fuzzy than a stark line. It's more of a Venn diagram is probably a better way to say it than there is a hard line between the two.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: For me, that's really good.
I would say I share that whole sentiment and model. You know, my first training as a coach came from Leadership Systems Incorporated and Dr. Jim Smith. And because it was training in the discipline, it was really drilled, really drilled in us. Stay in the coaching lane, stay in the inquiry, stay in questions. And as I've gone, and I really appreciated that because it takes that kind of firm discipline to really get the mindset. And then as you go through it and you experience coaching more and more, you realize there is a little bit more of a partnership to it than that. There is some experience, perspective, wisdom to sort of bring to the table. And the tools can work together. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. So I appreciate that's good affirmation from both of you.
Again, we could do a, we could do a season of this podcast on all of the things that you all are in and have to offer. But I do, I did want to specifically introduce our audience today to this concept of vertical development.
And I, my guess is that many of our, many of the people listening to this show, if they were like me, they're like, what is that exactly?
And so vertical development and the tools used to measure it and advance it. So again, I'll let the two of you sort of tag team as you wish. But let's start with the term vertical development.
What are we talking about here?
[00:18:02] Speaker A: So with vertical development, that was actually a term coined by the center for Creative Leadership and Nick Petrie's work, and it really is talking about constructive development theory, which is that humans, adults, we continue to construct meaning in new and complex ways.
As we develop.
And vertical development, I think is very clear because it automatically points to a direction, a maturity model, a hierarchical direction.
And whereas horizontal development, which you said at the beginning of today's session, is more competency and skill based. So vertical is how are we making sense of the world and horizontal is what are the skills, tools, competencies that we may need?
I think vertical development as a name is very helpful and very simple. It's also very limiting because it reinforces a sort of hierarchical approach that can miss at times the messiness and the fluidity.
What would you add, Bill?
[00:19:25] Speaker C: I both love and don't like this distinction between horizontal and vertical development. But if we go with that, I mean, I think horizontal development, so think about how are we developing our ability to delegate, how are we developing our ability to have performance management conversations, like all of the things that leaders need to do, Very skill based vertical development is how do we grow in complexity of thinking? How do we think in increasingly complex ways? You might ask, why does that matter?
Bob Keegan, Robert Keegan at Harvard, who's one of the theorists in this space, has this quote that says, complexity doesn't kill organizations. Their inability to match it with more complex thinking does.
And so what vertical development is pointing to is this ability to think in increasingly complex ways that is required of leaders and organizations these days as the or as the context around them becomes more complex.
So a metaphor I will often use is it's an operating system.
If you have an operating system on your phone, if you have an iPhone5 that might not be fit for complexity for today's world because the world needs phones to do more than that. So we need to update our internal operating system to a more complex version.
That's what's going on as we develop vertically. We're updating our internal operating system to meet the complexity of the world in which we operate.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: I love the operating system analogy.
Here's a question that came to mind as you were both talking through this and just. I'm going to think out loud, tell me if I'm on track or no. This is not the way it works.
It, it seems to me having, you know, the degree of exposure now and training that I've had on it, that horizontal development as you've described, the skill building, you know, I think of going through and getting an education and learning things and developing your skill on the job and, you know, grow, growing your marketability as an expert in something, your competencies seems to be more intentional and easy to access, whereas vertical development almost seems and maybe this is just because we don't pay enough attention to it. We don't think in this framework, not quite as easy to access or even grasp what it is, let alone be intentional about it. So as we walk through, you're going to walk us through the stages of vertical development in a moment. But for example, if I'm in one stage, we'll say achiever stage and I want to get to the next stage, I want to get to redefining or transforming.
It seems less accessible and simple to say, well, here's what I need to do to get there. Whereas horizontal development, whole plethora of things that you can kind of do and choose from. I don't know if I'm making sense at all in that I see both of you nodding. Our listeners can't see. But your thoughts on that?
[00:22:45] Speaker A: Well, it's interesting that you mentioned the accessibility of skill based development because we live in a very industrial world where if you think of the industrial revolution, what has automated so many things and given us the lifestyle we have now, it has been through emphasizing skills and skill development.
As we enter into a post industrial world, a world of AI, a world of new types of technologies, a world of even deepening complexity with what is happening globally.
It's not just skills that we need anymore, it's really how are we navigating through the complexity, how are we thinking, constructing meaning and relating to the world around us? And so I think we're also entering a different phase as a society from sort of an industrial to a post industrial era that is adding to.
Well, maybe skills are required. And then where does the overemphasis on skills start to fall short?
[00:24:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I just, I want to reinforce this, I want to sort of highlight this idea too that it's. We're not saying vertical or horizontal development, skill building isn't important. Like we need both. Like we need as leaders, we need to develop skills, we need to get good at doing budgets, we need to do those things and they are necessary and at times insufficient to meet the demands that many of the leaders that we face operate in. For example, I was working with a very senior leader in an organization who got promoted very quickly.
Super strong technician in her field.
And as she got promoted, her ability to navigate the complexity of the organization went down. So she had been very successful and all of a sudd. Everybody was wondering why is she, why is she losing her team? Why is she not able to think strategically? Why is she not like doing some of the things that C level Leaders need to be able to do it was because. And they kept trying to do skill building. Let's teach her how to, how to think strategically. Let's teach her how to communicate with her team. None of it was working because she didn't have the complexity or the nuance of thinking that was required at that level of the organization.
So to your point, Patrick, like, sometimes we go to skill building because that's easier. We know how to do that. The growing in complexity, growing vertical, supporting people's development vertically is more nuanced. There are things we can do, which is why Global Leadership Associates has these assessments so we can measure it. There are things we can do, but they're not as, they're not as familiar. They're not as. In the vernacular, they're not, you know, and so they're, it takes us. Takes awareness and special sort of knowledge of how to support people in growing in complexity. But it's different from how we've. Most traditional leadership development has happened.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: That's so spot on.
And again, that's exactly what I was saying.
In the vertical development space, it's like, okay, I'll do an assessment and okay, it shows me here, it shows me that I'm at this, I'm in this one, right? Of the seven stages of vertical development, I'm here and maybe I'm between a couple of them, but I'm, but I'm right here in the continuum.
How do I, how do I get there? How do I go further?
And that's my question is how much of that is just, you know, you just got to live a little longer, you got to experience a little more. It's, it's worldview, it's perspective that only comes with time and maturity versus well, here's some things you can start thinking about. Here's some things you can start practicing some new habits that will sort of change your mindset.
Maybe you're in, maybe you're not in the best position or career to move to the next vertical development stage. You know, maybe you need to look at a bigger, you know, framework on that. And I think that's a real challenge for me as sure. Now I understand the seven stages.
I can administer the assessment. I can do, you know, some level of debriefing with people. But these assessments are all, should all be tools, not just say, oh, okay, well, that's who I am. Great, that was cool.
But tools to, to grow. So if I want to grow vertically in this field, that's the big question is how do we lead people to do that. And maybe, maybe the two of you can say a little more about that. What does that look like in coaching in practicum?
[00:27:52] Speaker A: Definitely. And would it help to, for the audience, frame out the seven stages that you just mentioned?
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Patrick, that is a great. Yeah, that this probably is a perfect time to do that.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: So great, great, Bill.
It's gonna happen.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Aman brings it up and then ships it over to Bill. I love it.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Ships it over to Bill.
So just to give a little bit of genealogy and not get too theoretical, this work of vertical development through the genealogy of Global Leadership Associates is based on the work of Lovinger and then Bill Torbert, who was one of the founding members of Global Leadership Associates alongside Elaine Herman Barker, develop the global leadership profile. Bill Torbert also worked previously with Suzanne Cook Reuter, who has developed a different assessment, and Elaine Herdman Barker and Bill Torbert along with a few others. Richard Izard, Danny Morris framed Global Leadership Associates as a coaching and consulting firm that is focused on training in adult development.
And, and so the, the seven action logics is the language that comes from Global Leadership Associates. So different theorists might use stages of development forms of mind.
So there's, there's a lot of different ways of referring to this.
I have, I have really aligned with the action logics because it is about logic and how we're constructing meaning. And it also is then about our action, our behavior, how we show up in the moment based on how we're constructing meaning, how we see complexity. And so in this model, there are seven stages that are outlined or seven action logics. And there are action logics that are not outlined, that are, you know, beyond what is outlined. And I think that's really beautiful to note because what we're doing as researchers, as practitioners, as theorists is we're trying to capture the complexity of being human.
And you can do it with a model and go, okay, that's, that's great. This is, you know, this feels really good. We have something very profound here, and yet it doesn't quite capture it. So the recognition that all models are limited and some of them are useful.
So this, this starts with seven.
And I am going to turn it over to Bill because I feel like I've.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: I gave the genealogy before you do the. The term action logic sounds really cool, but I don't know, unless you've kind of been around it, if we, if maybe even I fully grasp it, the way I perceive the term action logic is that. And this is a bad, like, don't. Yeah, I know you don't teach this at Georgetown.
But like, if I think about the way a leader shows up, it's. It's logical based on where. What their worldview is. It's logical based on what stage of vertical development they're in. So the actions that they're displaying have a logic behind them, which is their perspective, their worldview, their stage in the development. Do I have that right?
[00:31:43] Speaker A: Exactly. It's like when we.
When a person may even engage with this work or their. Their behavior might be more indicative of where they are than whatever they have wrote or however they have taken the assessment.
So, for example, at the achiever worldview or action logic, a person is typically chasing time, very productive, very busy focus on goals, focused on getting to the next thing.
And you can see that in a person's behavior that they may be not necessarily running late, but they're running behind. They're trying to catch up with all that they have to do. They have a lot of. To do lists and checklists and things that they're trying to accomplish and always, what's next?
[00:32:44] Speaker B: What's the next thing to get to and get done.
[00:32:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: And I mean, I love all of the action logics and worldviews, but I tend to call the achiever the mvp, you know, the most valuable player, because they are really on it and getting things done and earnestly trying to be the best that they can be.
And it shows up. It shows up in the conversation. It shows up in the behavior.
So I prefer that language because it's not just about how we're constructing meaning. It's also also how we're showing up.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: In the world, how we're manifesting the meaning that we've constructed.
[00:33:23] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:33:24] Speaker B: The other thing that strikes me before Bill walks us through the stages is that I'm reminded that coaching has its roots in psychology.
And this is very much more the psychological look.
The idea of action logic seems very much more psychological than the horizontal stuff we talked about earlier, that coaches often focus on helping leaders develop skills and competence.
This seems like it's. It returns a little more back to the roots of psychology in coaching.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: Yes. And.
And some of the most profound coaching that I have experienced is a deeper examination into the stories we hold, our belief systems, how we've been shaped, how we are constructing meaning.
And that's where coaching is inherently developmental.
Any form of inquiry, self examination, self reflection has an inherently developmental component to it that I believe will support development, including adult development.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: Super well said. Super well said.
So seven stages, at least as. As it applies to this framework that we're. We're talking about and helping coaches through.
Bill, you want to walk us through them briefly?
[00:34:50] Speaker C: Two thoughts before I do. One is this idea of action logic. So you'll hear in the Global Leadership Associates world, you'll hear it talked about as action logic or worldview, which represents an evolution or a bit of a shift in thinking. So the new assessment is they call them worldviews in the. The more traditional assessment that they do, the global leadership profile, they're called action logics.
And really, simply put, I think about the action logic. Just to go back to the iPhone metaphor, an operating system has certain logic built into it which produces certain kinds of behavior and certain kind of functionality.
So does our internal action logic. Our internal action logic has a set of assumptions and capabilities or perspectives that it holds that makes certain behaviors possible. So the. It's the logic that drives our action in the world.
So that's one piece I wanted to say. The other piece is it's easy to think about these things as a set of stairs that we're marching through in a nice linear way to this sort of higher stage.
And I generally think of them first of all as rings on a tree. So the earliest ring followed by the next ring, next ring. Because we don't lose the.
The earlier action logics when we move to the next one. And we need those earlier ones. Like, if I'm operating from transforming, I need my achiever.
And so there is a.
It's just. I think it's really important. And like, later isn't better if we don't need it second. And development is a fluid thing. It's not this clear march. Like, sometimes we're going forward, sometimes we're going back sometimes. So I just like to think about this as a fluid movement.
Even as I present these in a linear way, I will talk about them from earliest to latest. But recognize that it's.
Sometimes we're leaning into our most expensive self. Sometimes I'm falling back to an earlier version of myself.
[00:36:52] Speaker B: So that's a good setup because in the two days that I spent with you and the. And the other people in the room, the other coaches in the room, that was a big part of the conversation is, what. What are we looking at here? Is this a hierarchy of. Of. Of excellence? Is.
Know what. What exactly is this? You know, people who feel like, well, somebody. Somebody who. Who profiles at stage five is better than someone who profiles at stage four. Right. They're more effective leaders, you know, or I'm not there yet or how do I get. So there became this, almost this concern about the judgment that comes with it or the, you know, the, the perception we place on where. So I really appreciate that context of it's not stairs, it's more again it's development tree is a great analogy for that.
[00:37:44] Speaker C: Yeah. And we can't access. If I haven't developed the later rings of a tree, I can't access those.
I can still go back to my earlier ones. I can only access the latest ring that I had developed. That doesn't mean I don't have the capacity to develop that later one. So all that context said I'll do a real quick walk through the seven action logics that are worldviews that are assessed in the global leadership profile on my worldview. So the earliest one is what we call the opportunist.
The opportunist is a more reactive short term mindset that may deliver results but will often do so in a way that is very reactive, self protective.
They have a very short instant gratification time horizon.
So that is the earliest actual. We don't often see this.
We don't see this. I don't think I've ever seen a leader who profiles as an opportunist in a leadership role. We might see some opportunist behaviors from time to time but we don't necessarily see people moving into leadership roles who profile there as their what we would call their center of gravity. The main place that they profile.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: There's a, there's a version of the assessment, a not as valid, reliable I would say, which is the cards activity. And so there's these transformation cards that. And I've used it a couple of times now since our training. I've used it with some groups and teams. And what I'm finding in that is that a leader who would likely profile, if they did the full assessment would likely profile at maybe an achiever.
When they do the cards because they're thinking about their stories, they'll sometimes pick a card that's in the opportunist range. Right. Or they'll pick a card that's an expert. They don't know what these things mean.
You know, they don't know, oh I picked, I just picked an expert card or I just picked an opportunist card. But they're relating it to certain times and experiences in their story.
I think this is what you're describing. There are elements of that because those are earlier stages that are online for them.
And so some of those, some of those may resonate. So they might pick a card in, in a earlier category, even though they might profile at a later stage and.
[00:40:06] Speaker C: Under stress, under pressure, in crisis, I might fall back to that.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And vice versa.
[00:40:13] Speaker C: Right.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: I've seen some people, yeah, I've seen some people pull some, you know, alchemical cards, which is the last stage I know you're going to get to. But. But, yeah, so it, again, it's a, it's a little bit of a snapshot. It's not quite the.
But it's informative.
I found it informative to do that version with teams and have them tell their stories to each other because that's when I'm really able to see and understand how people move and flow in and out of these various stages on a, on a, on a continuum.
So anyway, keep going. Let me, let me hold you.
[00:40:49] Speaker C: That's the first stage. Opportunist. First stage in this assessment. Opportunist. Then as that person develops and starts to recognize the limits of that way of making sense of the world, we start to move into what we call the diplomat. So the diplomat here, we start to be much more focused on group activities. Following rules.
The diplomat prioritizes loyalty, safety, group truth. And so we start to really look for that place that we get our sense of ourselves from the group that we are part of.
And that gives us a strong sense of identity, which is a big developmental step from the earlier stage.
So now we're not as focused on us, we're now focused on the group, which is a really important developmental step. Anybody who has children has probably seen where somebody has moved from a very self focused, where they start to follow norms and patterns of behavior and group. And so that's what happens at this diplomat stage.
This is a very conformist stage. So as somebody begins to recognize the limits of that overly conformist pattern of the diplomat, they begin to move into the expert. So the expert brings a degree of skepticism, rational judgment.
They are, they become alive to the dangers of groupthink and they start to prioritize mastery and skill development over conformity.
So that is again a big developmental step because now again, they don't lose that diplomat part, but they start to be able to question it in a way that they couldn't when they were operating from diplomat.
We do see many leaders operating as an expert in organizations. So where craft mastery is recognized and rewarded, technical skills, black and white thinking, right and wrong like these things, many people move into leadership roles who are operating from the expert.
This is also a Place where we start to see. And that works really well in also certain fields. Certain fields really lend themselves to that.
Oftentimes what happens is people begin to recognize the limitations of that and they move away from the efficiency of expert, with its sort of narrow focus on skill and control, into the achiever frame, where here they start to have a more future. They move from immediate focus to a more future focus.
So achievers are often rewarded. People operating from the achiever or action logic are often rewarded in organizations for their pragmatism, for their future focus, for their goal orientation.
So many, many, many leaders, and we can go down the line and think of many organizations that really reward this achiever mindset.
Many leadership programs are geared towards helping people develop this achiever mindset, start to cooperate differently towards shared goals. So this is a big developmental step to go from expert to achiever.
Things like values start to come online. You start to have more of an understanding of our own values and our own sense of purpose. Start to look at things from a couple different angles at achiever.
Eventually, not all leaders. So as we move through these later in these next series of stages, there are less and less people who profile at these next series of stages. So the next stage beyond achieving is what we call redefining.
So here a leader starts to deconstruct the rationality of their achiever and start to challenge and question themselves, the relationships they're in, the systems that they're a part of, because they're starting to stand back as if on a balcony and question things and look at things from a. From a higher. From a higher vantage point, for lack of a better term.
And so they start to question rules, they start to question processes.
Often it can feel like somebody who's moving into redefining. It can feel like the earth is shaking underneath of them because they start to question everything.
So I've worked with many leaders who are in this stage who have a bit of a. What we might call an identity crisis because much of what, how they've seen themselves and the world around them they're starting is coming into question.
It feels like things are falling. It can feel like things are falling apart. I always say they're falling together in a new way because they're starting to question things that they might not have questioned before.
An even smaller percentage of leaders then move on to the transforming action logic, which is the next one. Transforming leaders begin to integrate the new discoveries from redefining. So we've seen all of these things and redefining questions a lot of now they start to bring them back together into a more coherent story.
They can see even bigger patterns of system, longer time horizon.
They're able to consider context and what might be driving certain sets of behavior in a way that earlier action logics can't.
They're both able to inquire and question into things and take action in an integrated way.
And then a much smaller percentage of leaders then move on to the alchemical.
The alchemical perspective or the alchemical leaders act almost inversely to the transforming leader where they start to dismantle the very sources of reason. They start to.
They're able to bother old paradox in different ways. So they. It can hold structure and flexibility.
It's almost. They have a.
They start to hold things much more lightly. They hold constructs themselves as, as a. Almost a limit limiting construct. And they have them.
They embrace things like the lightness and the humor of the human experience. They embrace shadow.
We see very few people actually move into this stage.
Many if, if we see people with alchemical bits in their profiles, but we don't see many people purely operating at the alchemical stage.
Let me stop there.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I think you said at the training that that many of the people who would profile an alchemical are probably no longer in the workplace.
[00:47:43] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:47:43] Speaker B: By that time.
[00:47:44] Speaker C: Yeah. They. They often move out of organizations at this point.
[00:47:47] Speaker B: There's a couple of things that strike me about this. I'm. For some reason I'm. I'm wanting to overlay self determination theory on top of this, which if you know the, the. The three, the three pieces of that. The need for autonomy.
And I can really see that in the achiever mode of being, being. Being in control of it. To achieve my own goals, even, even achieve requires a degree of autonomy. You know, the second part of the self determination is competence or mastery which I can really see show up in the expert stage and, and the achiever stage and then the belonging or the relatedness which goes all the way back to the diplomat stage, the second stage that is always there even though that's not the foundation of where we're. It's not that it's not the logic that's driving our action at that point.
But it's not like we lose the sense of belonging or the desire for relatedness and identity just because we've, you know, we're. We're three stages past that in our overall development.
So that sort of struck me. I don't know if that overlay is valid or not. In your view.
The second thing that came to me is that when you use the word transforming, this is where I'm still trying to piece all this together.
Words like expert or transforming.
These just the labels of the stage itself present themselves and show up. They're present in the other areas.
You know, there's expertise required to be an achiever.
So again, they're sort of coming online.
I profile probably in that, in that achiever mode. And yet I have felt, felt many times in my leadership more transforming. But I think it's how I'm defining, transforming. So for an achiever, and I'm, I'll speak for myself, the idea of transforming a system, changing, changing something in an organization is a sense of achievement. It's like the transformation is what I'm trying to achieve.
And so, but I'm coming at it not because of a transformational sort of worldview, but because I have an achiever worldview. And if the goal is to change it or transform it, does that make sense? Like these things overlap like crazy for me.
[00:50:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think part of what you're pointing to too is like it's easy to put our, any of these labels. We can, you know, we're, we're making sense of the, we're making sense of the term through our action logic. So our action logic is shaping everything that we do. So even as I look at the term and as I look at the model, I'm bringing my action logic to that.
And these words have meaning, like transforming has meaning in our sort of everyday language side of this model in our everyday language. And so we bring that language to it. And so. But I think what you pointed to well is what's the action logic that's dry. If I'm transforming a system, am I doing that from my expert mindset? Am I doing that from my achiever mindset? Am I doing it from my redefining mindset? That because I can do it from any one of those, it's just going to impact how that, how that happens. Just like if we use a more everyday example that listeners can relate to delegation. Like we can look at any competency, delegation, communication, building and leading a team, things that leaders need to be able to do. I can do that from an expert mindset, I can do it from an achiever mindset, I can do it from a redefining mindset and I can do it from a transforming mindset. I can do it from any, any of it. Like depending on which action logic is just going to look and feel different to the people around me based upon which action logic I come out of.
[00:51:45] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I know this is difficult for our listeners to, you know, listen to this framework without seeing it. Maybe I'll, I'll check with the two of you offline as to what we might be able to offer on the, on the episode page, as at least a one pager of what these even are.
Aman, you said something at the training that I have repeated probably a hundred times since we were together, and it was regarding assessments in general. Of course, we were talking about the my worldview assessment. But your statement was, when it comes to assessments, we should take them seriously but hold them lightly.
And that was so helpful for me, and it's been helpful for a number of my coaches because people get obsessed with them. They look at the assessment like, oh, no, what about I gotta fix this? Or how do I fix that? Everything becomes centered on this assessment, whatever it is. Disc motivators, emotional intelligence, My worldview.
So one is that, you know, Bill said repeatedly, this is one tool.
And Aman, your. Your take was take it seriously. It's informative, but hold it lightly.
So I guess what I would ask you, both of you, but I'll start with Amon.
How do you, how do you use the assessment effectively in a coaching engagement? You, you can maybe tell a story if you have one, or just talk theoretically, but how do you use the assessment and the data that an assessment gives a coachee without obsessing on and making it the holy grail of everything you're coaching them on?
[00:53:19] Speaker A: Now, that's a great question. And it was my draw to the Global Leadership Associates community was how lightly the work is held and yet the level of nuance and care and, and depth. And I what the line that has stuck with me a hundred times in my head is place the person before the profile.
So the profile is giving me a glimpse into how they're making meaning at this point in time. And that can change.
You know, it can change to being under stress and then operating at a different action logic, or what's sometimes referred to as fallback, which Valerie Lives say has contributed quite a bit of insight into that.
And, and then they may be operating at a different action logic. So honoring the fluidity and the fluid nature that, as Bill said earlier, nobody is just one thing. You know, even when there is an assessment, it's more like a bell curve and a center of gravity.
So somebody could profile an achiever and they have an expert tail or they're starting to lean into redefining.
Okay, that's really helpful and insightful.
And what's more helpful and insightful for me as a coach is, is listening to the person and getting to know them.
So when I, when I use this with clients, and I tend to use the GLP or my worldview with pretty much all of my clients, I, I will administer the assessment and then I really sit with, how did they experience taking it?
You know, what did they choose to share and where did they hold certain things back?
And even with powerful coaching questions and a safe container, you know, the safety, the trust that's, that's built through coaching, there's a lot more complexity that is revealed than sometimes what is shared in an assessment.
And so I've become curious about that. Like the privilege of hearing more of them and more of the complexity and the curiosity of, well, what do they choose to share in certain contexts and when do they choose to remain guarded or a little bit less vulnerable and when does it make sense as a leader? You know, I, I had a client recently who said, well, if, if I, if it fits the context and I'm going to go deeper and if it doesn't, I'm just, I'm not. And that could be a very appropriate approach. Like, not every meeting requires somebody's transformative and redefining elaborations of all these different perspectives. Sometimes you want to be in the meeting with that expert mindset, know the agenda, know the bullet points, points, complete the task and move on. So it's for me, instead of holding it as a holy grail or a particular action logic as a holy grail, I think what is, has been more important for me is to hold the use of it, the fluidity of it, the movement of it. Because we are not action logics. We are humans and we're having the experience of these action logics. You know, we're not a theory. We are living our life and the theory is informative as to how we might be living our life. And I think that's what's more important as.
And that's what I'll also draw the client's attention to because they may get really fixated on it and they may say, okay, mom, that's great, but this is where I am and how fast do I get to alchemical?
[00:57:43] Speaker B: That's so good. We do label. We do a lot of disc assessments. For example, we do team disc workshops and things. And people walk around going, oh, I'm a D and she's a C and I'm. Or I'm a red and she's a, you know, an achiever. And you're so right. We're not a D.
We're a human. We have a lot of complexities and we're not relegated to a. A label or a, you know, a single framework that's really what. And yes, contextual. One of the things I find useful in the assessments is it creates an awareness for the leader that if I have a profile, so do all my people.
Like, they all come from a different. Like what might be explaining some of their behaviors that I might need to understand a little bit better so that I can coach and lead them.
[00:58:30] Speaker A: Yes. And how do we not weaponize that? You know, you used the word judgment earlier.
I think that's the trickiest tension with an assessment like this is that it is inherently.
Everything we do with any kind of assessment is inherently applying some type of a label.
And how do we use the information in a way where it is not judgmental, Putting people into boxes. You're a D, you're an achiever, you're this, you're that. It's like even with Enneagram, I'm a big fan of that assessment and I love some of the language of I am working with a type 2. I am not.
So how do we create a little bit of distance so that we as coaches and also our clients don't over identify with the results because especially with developmental work, the results can change. It's not baked personality.
[00:59:33] Speaker B: Yeah, good stuff, Bill. And we'll, we'll wrap this here in a little bit. We're at, we're at an hour and gosh, we could go another.
We go two days on this, couldn't we?
Bill, you. You said something that stood out with me at the training about meeting a coachee where they are.
And so the idea that, you know, a coach has a certain, certain action logic or a certain worldview, but the person that we're coaching may be in a further developed stage or a less developed stage.
And your phrase of meet them where they are as their coach really stood out for me. Could you maybe say more about that? I don't know if it's through a. In an example or just kind of how a coach can do that.
[01:00:29] Speaker C: Yeah. So first, I think it's really, it's really important to acknowledge like even if somebody profiles later stage, say somebody profiles redefining or transforming and they come to a coaching session or, or they're in a. They might show up very expert or achiever in a given moment.
And so I have to.
To Ahmad's point, if I'm interacting with a profile, I'm going to say, well, this person is, this person profile is transforming.
They may not actually show up in the conversation. Very transforming. They may be showing up for whatever reason from a very, you know, very achiever, action logic perspective. And so I have to remember that to Iman's point, this is a human being sitting across from me and how do I, how do I meet them where they are in this moment separate from what their profile tells me.
And this is true for any, I think any, any coaching client, any leader, any leader meeting their team members. Like, where is this, where is this human being across from me right now in this moment? And how do I meet them where they are and connect with them, human being to human being, heart to heart, soul to soul, person to person as a way to build relationship and connection, which is essential in coaching, which is essential in leadership.
And that is, you know, that is informed by my action logic.
It is informed by their action logic, but it's also informed by my humanity and their humanity. And I think for doing developmental work sometimes to your question that you asked that Iman was answering, sometimes, like I do an assessment and then I put the. I don't even think about it. I again, like, I set it aside and I just, I meet them human being to human being. And what we know is development happens in a relational field.
And so if I set aside all of the theory and all of the stuff from the assessment and I just be with this person in a relational field, create a space for them to engage in inquiry and exploration and experimentation in a safe way in the relationship and then support them in doing that work, development will happen, happen.
Like I don't have to think so much about getting them next stage, but if I can be with somebody in a relation and create a relational field that creates psychological safety, that creates connection, that challenges their perspective in a way that is that they can hear, growth will happen.
[01:03:00] Speaker B: I think for coaches, one of the first things I learned as a coach was coach the person, not the problem.
And what I think is a new layer of that that I got from my experience with the two of you is coach the person, not the profile.
And so I think that's a good way of sort of summing this up.
Man, we really could go on and on and we did just scratch the surface as to what this stuff even is and what the concepts are.
I know that people can go to GLA Global for more information on this stuff and, and kind of do their own research on how far and how deep they want to go. I imagine they could contact any of the three of us if they are interested in, you know, taking the assessment or learning more about it.
And so we're gonna, we'll have.
If you're listening to this on, on Spotify or Apple or any of the major things, if you go to the leadership perspective.com and go to the podcast page, which is a main menu item, go to this episode page and we've got contact information for, for Aman and for Bill and you can reach out to any of us if you want to learn more about this stuff.
I have two questions that I like to ask all my guests before we wrap an episode episode and we'll let you both take a shot at both of these. And my first question is, who comes to mind for you as a leader in your life?
That just immediately comes to mind as someone who has had profound influence on, on your view of leadership.
And, and why does that person come to mind?
[01:04:47] Speaker C: So this is an easy one for me.
There was a woman named Laura Whitworth, she's no longer with us.
And she founded the coaching school that I went to, founded the first leadership program that I went through.
And there are two things. I mean, she fundamentally influenced my thought, my thinking about what leadership is or what it means to be a leader. But more importantly, how she was in relationship to me completely changed the trajectory of my life. And that it includes things like the most impactful thing is like I always knew she loved me and cared for me and she was really direct and clear with me about what she saw both as my potential and where I wasn't living up to it. And that combination of love and challenge really changed the change in the trajectory of my life.
[01:05:41] Speaker B: Life, man. There's. There's a few leaders who get that balance down, don't they? They can do both at the same time. That's powerful.
Let's go. Aman, who, who comes to mind for you?
[01:05:55] Speaker A: It's hard to choose just one person or one leader.
And I would, I would have to say that it has been a spiritual guide and mentor.
And this person who is quite famous but not inspiring to me at all because he's famous.
Inspiring because of the view of holding this deep sense of love and interconnectedness. And his name is Sri Sri Ravi Shankar who has been my meditation teacher, spiritual teacher for a very long time.
And no matter what, there has been a steady loving presence.
Whether that is, as Bill said, in a very direct, honest way.
There's something Very profound about providing steady, unconditional regard for other humans. That I think has more of an impact than, I don't know. I mean, this teacher has had a profound impact on the world. And yet it is those personal connections that just stay in my veins and my bones.
[01:07:47] Speaker B: Wow. Well, both of you use the word love in your descriptions of these people. And I think it's thematic in terms of who you are and how the two of you show up, because it very much is at a people relational level. I mean, your expertise is off the charts. There's no, there's no questioning your credentials and your capabilities and your career accomplishments and all that. But, boy, I sure feel the people side before anything else. I really appreciate that. My last question is give you each a megaphone and a platform at the top of a mountain and you've got 15 seconds to tell all the leaders of the world at the bottom of the, the mountain. The number one thing, the number one thing you think we ought to all keep in mind as leaders.
So you, you get the, you know, what's, what's the, what is your sort of 15 second soundbite on leadership. How would you, how would you sum that up?
[01:08:50] Speaker C: The. So this builds on what you were just saying. Leadership is an act of love. Love. You have to love yourself, love others, love. Love the impact you're trying to make in the world.
And love can be muscular and strong or it can be gentle and kind. But, but if we lead from love, we'll have the impact that we want to have in the world.
[01:09:11] Speaker B: It's good. I'm on.
[01:09:16] Speaker A: I would, I would add to what Bill said. Absolutely. Love.
And my 15 second spiel for any leader that I would ever meet in the world would be it's okay to not know, it's okay to doubt, and it's okay to feel a bit wobbly in your confidence and your perceptions.
And maybe that's where you may find some glimpses of wisdom.
[01:09:53] Speaker B: Wow.
That's inspiring. That's inspiring. You both have inspired me since I came into, into contact with you. I want to thank you again for everything you're doing. Thanks for coming on the show today.
We've offered and I think you've both accepted. Somewhere down the line we may have each of you back on, maybe individually, so we can just kind of dive into your, your individual work.
Bill heads up is a big part of a group called Cultivating Leadership.
AMAN and Water of Life Coaching and Consulting.
Both are big leaders and coordinators in the GLA space. Global Leadership Associates again, go to GLA Global for more information on the things that we're about talking, talking about here. And if you need to go back and listen to this episode again, we'll give you a cheat sheet, maybe of some sort on our, on our podcast page one, we're allowed to use and and reach out to any of us with any questions that you may have. And in the meantime, lead.
