Episode 138 - Interim Leadership in a Crisis with Jim Rettew

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to the Leadership window podcast with Dr. Patrick Jenks. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Each week through a social sector lens. [00:00:11] Speaker A: Patrick interviews leaders and experts and puts. [00:00:14] Speaker B: Us in touch with trends and tips for leading effectively. Patrick is a board certified executive coach. [00:00:19] Speaker A: A member of the Forbes Coaches Council. [00:00:21] Speaker B: A best selling author, award winning photographer. [00:00:24] Speaker A: And a professional speaker. And now, here's Dr. Patrick Jenks. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Welcome to episode one 138, everyone. The leadership Window. We're gonna get right to it. We have, I think there's a couple of reasons that our guest today is timely. First of all, the work that he does and the thing that we're going to mostly be talking about today is always a thing. So there's never a time when it's not in season and that is the role of an interim executive director, interim CEO or for that matter, any really in any interim c role in your organization. But you know, also just before we got on the show, Jim Ratu is our guest and he alerted me to, I can't wait to read it. But he's got a guide on his LinkedIn account, so look him up on LinkedIn at the end of the show. A guide, the nonprofit survival guide. And he just let me know about that right before we hit the record button. So I'm going to ask him about that in a little bit. So we know at it is and that is definitely timely right now because the sector is just, I was, I'll just say it. The sector is reeling right now with all of the federal funding threats and cuts and things that are happening. About a third of all nonprofit revenue in the United States is from the federal government. And it is, it's all, it's all on the table right now. We don't know if it's all on the chopping block, but it's all on the table. And that's got a lot of nonprofits scrambling. And this is just, you know, finally we get out of the global pandemic thing and now we've got this. So it's always something. So I'm interested in knowing a little bit more about the nonprofit survival guy. But Jim Ritu is, Jim is, we'll just say he is a professional interim executive director or interim CEO, particularly for nonprofits. He provides executive leadership for nonprofits, social enterprises. And he acts in this role to do a number of things. Not just keep the lights on, but to strengthen funding streams, to redesign business models, to improve culture, to streamline operations. Things we don't often think about being the role of an interim CEO. He's a part of a Network in the Bay Area called the Bay Area Interim Executive Directors. I mean, it's just what he does. So. So his expertise in this. Look him up on the web as well. Jim.retu.com that's Jim. And then R E T T E W. We'll have the link on our podcast page. Jim, welcome to the show. Thanks for reaching out and carving out time for our listeners. [00:03:18] Speaker A: Thank you so much for that warm introduction. I can't wait to get into it. [00:03:23] Speaker B: You can't wait to hear what you have to say, right? Well, we're just going to talk. I'm really interested in this conversation we had a few years ago, maybe, maybe about three years ago. There's a colleague of mine here in South Carolina named Colleen Bozard who's retired now but has done a lot of work in this space of interim CEO, particularly around our Southeast region, South Carolina, Georgia, where she actually is now. And we had an episode about the role of an interim director back then. And she's the one who got me thinking about it very differently. I've served as an interim twice, actually myself, and this was in the United Way Network when I was still in that world. And I think, you know, I think I brought leadership, but I don't know that I brought the mindset of being, for example, a change agent or a fundraiser really, for that matter. I mean, the United Way campaign was going on and we had to run it, but this wasn't about designing fundraising or business model streams or improving culture or any of that because it was temporary. And so I'm really interested in hearing from you because I know that's. I know, like Colleen, you take a much more comprehensive look at why. Why waste the six months or whatever the period of time is, why waste that time with an interim just to arm the security system at night? Why don't we leverage that? So I appreciate it. I'm going to let you introduce yourself more. But my question for you as you do that is I know that you have a degree in poly and you have a master's in Public policy, so how the heck do you end up in the seat of serving as an interim CEO for nonprofits from there? [00:05:09] Speaker A: Always random, right? I mean, who knows how any of us walk our path? But for me, I had been working in nonprofits. I had been a chief communication officer for the Red Cross in Colorado, a chief external relations officer for the Minnesota Zoo. And I was just moved to Minnesota basically, and I went to a strategic retreat for a non profit that was doing building girls schools in Liberia, Africa. And the reason that was so phenomenal is because girls don't go to school in Liberia, Africa. Only about 15% go to elementary school, let alone middle or high school. So what this woman was doing was phenomenal. And, and she was an incredible chief inspiration officer. But I think self. Admittedly, she was an awful operations officer. I mean, sometimes she would have trouble balancing her own checkbook. And so the, the thing that came out of that, and it was at Target, Target being based in Minneapolis. So I was with a whole bunch of Target executives and me, the only person who had nonprofit experience. And what came out was like, you need a COO like yesterday. And so they all turned to me and like, hey, Jim, you've been in nonprofits. You're the new guy here. Why don't you do it? And so I did. And that was an incredible experience to. To build that nonprofit up. Long of the short is the Ebola crisis hit in Africa that year. We had to pivot our schools to foster care, to take care of kids when their parents were sick. And long and short is that our CEO actually won was one of Time magazine's people of the Year from the work we did. So that was my first step into interim. And then once you get interim by your name, then people like, oh, you're the interim dude. Like, can you help me? Right? And so you're sort of attached to it. So then I got another interim when I moved to San Francisco, I got another interim for a working ranch that was an environmental education center. And then one turned into two, turned into three. It just kept going and going and going. And. And I've learned a lot about what makes a good interim and how to change this. It's. It's. I'm starting to codify sort of that learning that that's what's on my LinkedIn newsletter page. But just one thing you mentioned is about mindset, and I think that's a really important. Because there's lots of different types of interims, right? One is. One is more of a placeholder. You're just there, as you say, to turn the security system on sign checks. You're more of a babysitter, a placeholder. That is not the kind of interim work I do. I do it basically when the board has either fired their executive director or the executive director of resigned. When finances are in the tube, morale is in the tank, you're in the press for all the wrong reasons. The politicos want to take away your funding, and it's a dumpster fire. And the reason I love this is because my mindset is not to hunker down and protect. My mindset is never waste a good crisis, that every crisis is an opportunity, every transition is an opportunity to change your organization for the better. And when organizations are in crisis and they're more malleable. And so I always say I can get three years of change done in about nine months. And that's the mindset that I go into. And that's why I love this job. [00:08:54] Speaker B: That's interesting. And I do appreciate that distinction because I would say many, if not most of the nonprofits, at least, that I've worked with, when we think of interim CEO, this is the role you play when the retiring CEO has finally said, yep, June's my last day, and the board decides, you know, well, we're going to conduct a search and in the meantime, let's get an interim who can make sure that we're, we're, you know, stewarding the resources and all of that. Well, and so usually would find an interim. I've seen, I've seen two kinds, mostly. One, someone who doesn't want the job, someone who's from the outside, who literally is going to come in for six months, and I'll give you six months, but you need to find your person. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:41] Speaker B: And, and I'll keep the lights on, as we say. The other is a senior leader in the organization who aspires to take the position. And the interim role is given to them and they see it as an audition and they get a leg up on everybody because they get to show their skills as an interim. And in hopes that then the board will say, well, yeah, you're doing such a great job, we're going to remove the interim from your title. And you're it. You're talking about something very different and something that I have seen plenty of times, which is when there's an unexpected departure. And that departure is either either created by, or creates what, what nonprofits would consider to be a crisis. So I think the difference here, tell me if this makes sense, is in the first area that I described, that's more of an organization in transition. In the organization you're describing, it's an organization in crisis. Is that a fair distinction? [00:10:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a fair distinction. Yeah. I mean, the, the first scenario you laid out, like having like a six months Runway to figure out the transition, and it's overlaps and I mean, that's beautiful. If you can do that, by all means. [00:10:59] Speaker B: Yeah, you're in a. You're in a good, healthy place. [00:11:02] Speaker A: It doesn't happen like it doesn't happen nearly as much. I think the statistic is about 20% of executive directors, nonprofit CEOs transition out every year. One out of every five every year. And from the non profits, I know most don't have succession plans. [00:11:24] Speaker B: Right. Because they're small. Most of them are small. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Right. If you have a COO who's in the wings and you're going to try them out really like this guy or woman, and you just want to try them out, that's great too. I mean, it's all specific, but I don't find that like. What I find is there's a tipping point. Something happens that sort of exposes, that pulls the curtain on the wizard of Oz and you realize that your solid foundation isn't as solid. It's more of a house of cards. And something brings down that house of cards and they have a oh shucks moment and they need to do something quick. And that is the moment. Now, there's different benefits to all these different things. Right. The internal person, you know them, they know you, they can try it out. That's great if that's what you're looking for. What's not as great though, there's some drawbacks, Right. The drawbacks are they don't have a fresh pair of eyes. They probably have developed organizational habits that may or may not be good. They probably have some political ties to staff or board that may or may not be helpful. Right. It's usually a much more status quo kind of thing. The other model is you bring in a board member, right? [00:12:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:46] Speaker A: And, and that's good. The board members are usually very professional, but. [00:12:53] Speaker B: And they at least know a little bit about the organization already, so they're not like completely ignorant of what's blurs. [00:13:00] Speaker A: The line between governance and staffing. [00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:03] Speaker A: Sometimes it gets a little awkward. Sometimes the board members, while they may be a professional lawyer or doctor, they're not a professional at running the organization, especially during times of transition and crisis. And so while they look good on paper, they're not really good practically. So you got to think about what your situation is. But if you're going, if, if something is precipitating this change and you don't have a succession plan, an interim, a professional interim CEO is a, is a great way to think about them. There's one more little caveat I want to throw out, which is folks like me, we don't run for the permanent job. We specifically go in saying we're not. And the reason, because we don't want to be biased. We don't want to often we have to say truth to power. We have to tell the board that maybe they're part of the problem. This is how we see it. And if we're trying to curry the board's favorite or staff favor because they're going to be on a CEO selection committee later, we're not going to be as objective, as truthful as we need to be. So that is also sort of what you're getting to, is an objective, fresh pair of eyes. [00:14:14] Speaker B: That's good. I'm imagining that the first thing that an interim CEO would do when they are taking an organization that's in some sort of turmoil is to build some confidence back immediately. Confidence with the board, confidence with the stakeholders. And so I guess my question for you is one, is that accurate? Is building confidence sort of the first thing you try to do? And two, where is your focus? How much of your focus as a CEO, a permanent CEO? I've often made the case that a CEO should almost be more externally facing than internally facing, particularly if it's a community based nonprofit that's relying on community support and leadership and visibility. An interim CEO in a time of turmoil has a lot of internal things to take care of. In six to nine months of taking an organization like that, how much of your bandwidth is focused internally versus toward the external stakeholders who also need their confidence restored pretty quickly? [00:15:19] Speaker A: I mean that question boils down to what is the crisis that's causing this? So my last one, I was at the Yerbuena center for the Arts. It's a major arts institution in downtown San Francisco. They had been in the press because of different pro Palestine demonstrations that had closed down the museum. And they were getting the interest of some of the city council people from San Francisco. It was a public sort of mess. And so that was more extern relations. The one before that Downtown Streets team was more about internal, was writing the ship financially. And so you ask like where do I look? The first place I look is finances because it's often what happens is there's a stated reason why there's a change and then once that sort of uncovers a whole bunch of things. So yeah, in one of my, in one of my non profits, I won't say which, I got in there and Monday, 11am, first day, two hours in, meet with my CFO and she's like, hi, nice to meet you, I'm your cfo. And by the way, we can't make Payroll Friday. [00:16:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:40] Speaker A: I was like, wow. I mean the board didn't tell me about that. It's like, well, it's a good thing we don't have additional debt. And she's like, oh no, we do. I was like, wow, board didn't tell me about that. She's like, well, they don't know. Wow. What else don't they know? Well, we have a two million dollar lawsuit against us. Wow, okay. And then she's like, here's my resignation. [00:17:00] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Okay. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Like two hours at like so perfect storm. The. The stated reason about why I needed to come in was click. Quickly surpassed by like, oh, this is, this is a financial thing. So that is number one where I look. And so I'll get into all the stuff. I'll get into the balance sheets, the income statements, the budget versus actuals, the variances. I'll look into the good places where I really look. I look into the footnotes, into the audits, because that's where all the deep stuff is. And the. Yeah, I'll look into payroll because most of 50 to 80% of a non profits expenses are usually payroll. So that's where I find some good stuff and what happens. I think you started this by saying, hey, I think I have to. You have to build trust or you have to build confidence and have some small wins. And by uncovering where the bodies are buried in the finances, it's really quite. You would think people would go, oh my God, that's awful. But what they do is like, that's amazing because now we've gone from fog to clarity. And then now we've gone in from a reactive to proactive. Once we know what the problems are, usually the board and the staff are a bunch of smart people. Like, we can get our arms around this and problem solve this. And that's what we do. Right? It's the lack of clarity that has caused a lot of the tension and stress. So that's probably my biggest win in the very beginning is getting that clarity. [00:18:40] Speaker B: It's like a medical diagnosis. You know, we've got something wrong with us and doctors are just like, we can't find it. We can't find it. We don't know. We don't know. Everything looks fine. No, something's wrong. God, I'd rather know. And even if it's something bad so that we can then create a plan of action for how to address it. [00:18:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So that's sort of number one. I mean the second way I sort of have small wins and build trust is I just do a listening and empathy tour on my first three days and first week is pretty much all about a listening tour. Now that sounds so cliche, but it works. I mean, I basically go in, I'm like, hi, I'm, I'm the, I'm the new interim CEO. I'm so sorry you're going through this. It must be awful. Like, I'm here to do what I can. I have no agenda for this meeting other than to listen to you and to make sure I get clarity about what you've been experiencing and what you think we should do. [00:19:44] Speaker B: What are your biggest concerns from your point? [00:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah, and, and I, I will do my best, but I can't do it without you. [00:19:50] Speaker B: It's good. [00:19:51] Speaker A: And that's it. And, and like, again, once people feel heard and I, I mean, I try to do, you know, I paraphrase back what I've heard. I'll do a follow up session about summarizing everything I've heard. You know, you don't want to be, go in and, and be a surgeon and just start cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting. You gotta listen and empathize and understand before you do anything. And that builds trust. And trust is the absolute number one common denominator of all of this. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Yeah, take, take the interim conversation out of it and everything you just said holds like that, that you're talking about leadership tenants. Now listen, listen to your people. You know, build the trust by, by caring about what they think about. And, and don't just walk in and start hacking things just because you're in charge and you have the authority. You said something else a minute ago that got my attention, which was around what you came into that you didn't know, that the board didn't tell you. I've seen that and had that happen in a permanent position where they hire a permanent CEO and they don't tell everything to the CEO, in fact, even things they might know because they want this. They, they found a CEO they really like and want and they, they don't want to lose them. I, I've had that experience and it's like you didn't, you didn't paint the whole picture for me. What I learned from it is candidates for any position, but certainly the CEO need to have some skill around what to ask and discover before accepting a position because you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. And so I learned that from the standpoint though, of what if the board doesn't know what it doesn't know. How do you what's your learning from that? Is there a way for an interim or a permanent CEO candidate to discover more than maybe, maybe find a way to dig deeper, maybe even as a prerequisite of saying yes. Like, what did you learn from that? How would you have done that any differently? [00:22:12] Speaker A: Yeah. First of all, I can't agree with you more about asking that question before you take the job. And that's one of my standard questions is like, tell me the warts. Tell me the skeletons in the closet. Like, I'm going to find it in a month, and I don't want to be surprised, so you might as well tell me here. Like, don't tidy up the crime scene. Don't sugarcoat it. Tell me right now. [00:22:35] Speaker B: The question I like is pretend you're trying to talk me out of this job. What would you tell me? [00:22:41] Speaker A: That's a great question. I will use that to your other thing about what if the board doesn't know? And that is, you got to be. You got to do your own due diligence. You got to do your own homework. So, I mean, all those boring audit reports, I will read over, like, anything that's publicly posted. The 990s, the budgets, the financials. What about interviews? [00:23:05] Speaker B: What about interviews? What about. I mean, is it appropriate to. To request of the board, hey, I want to talk to the whole C suite. I want to talk to the Chief Financial officer first. I want to talk to the chief Development officer. I want to talk to the HR person, and I want to have conversations with them. [00:23:22] Speaker A: I think at a certain. When you're down to maybe the finalists, the final two. Right. I would hope that a lot of the C suite was involved in the interview. And, like, I've had a opportunity to ask them questions in the staff component of the interview. If I haven't, I would certainly want to talk to them individually and get their assessment. [00:23:42] Speaker B: And I'm, I'm talking particularly when you know there. That, like, there's a. It's a crisis orientation. [00:23:50] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm like, I want to talk to the people on the ground. Right. Sometimes you don't get a chance. Like. Like speed is your friend. Right. So while I'm a regular CEO, search might go three, four, five months, an interim search is probably two to three weeks. It's. It's quick, right? [00:24:14] Speaker B: Because if you don't have time, if that. Sometimes it's a phone call to that board member you just talked about, you know? [00:24:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:19] Speaker B: Hey, would, you know, the chair asked me to call you and see if you're up for this. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Yeah, usually I'll get a tepid call saying, hey, Jim, we heard about you from such and such, we might need you. And I asked some questions. They're sort of hesitant. Well, I don't know if I can tell you everything. And it's like, well, and then a couple days later, now it's two board members on the phone and they've been authorized to tell me everything. And then there's another conversation with like maybe half the board and they're ready to approve you. So it goes pretty quick. And it should. Like you mentioned, I'm part of the Bay Area interim executive director network. And, and one of the good things about that is it's a vetting organization. Right. You have to apply, you have to have a certain minimum standard of work, a certain minimum level of interim gigs. And so people should look for that kind of thing. Like, is there some sort of vetting organization so that you don't have to do as much vetting yourself? [00:25:19] Speaker B: That's interesting. I appreciate that you're making me think on that one a little more. I'm a professional leadership coach. Coaching is not a regulated industry. Counseling is, coaching isn't. And so when you know, it's like digital photography, when digital photography came out, suddenly everybody was a professional photographer because it was accessible. And you just create a watermark in Photoshop and you'll get clients. Coaching. Coaching has been very much the same way. It's misunderstood. There's a lot of what I would just consider unqualified coaches. But it's easy. You can, anybody can build a website, create an llc, even take some course that offers certification and say, I'm a certified coach. And so the vetting of that is really important. And so this idea of an interim executive director network, while it's not regulated, it does lend itself to at least trying to professionalize. I'm appreciating this, that the fact that there's to be a part of a network like that where someone's going to refer you and endorse you and sort of vouch for you, there's got to be some, some minimum criteria that you have to meet in order to qualify to do that. Because. Yeah, and it's a growing consultancy, from what I can tell. The, the idea that my consultancy is that I serve as interim. That is what I do. I don't, I don't do strategic planning one offs. I don't do. It's just this is what I do. And I'm seeing More and more consultancies like that. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Seems like a pretty fast growing area of consultancy. Is it because the demand, what, what's, what do you think's driving that? [00:27:06] Speaker A: Oh, I mean, you mentioned that there's a lot of external factors that's doing it. I think people aren't staying in their jobs as much. I think we have all this hyper communication and so controversies get out quicker and they, the magnitude is deeper. We're seeing incredible funding cuts as you mentioned at the top of the show, that is sort of precipitating like more bankruptcies. [00:27:34] Speaker B: There's still an aging out. [00:27:36] Speaker A: There's an aging out. We're in a hyper legal environment and so lawsuits. It's sort of like a person. Right. Like what are the things that tip a person from positive, the negative? And it could be a health scare, it could be financial, it could be job. I mean it's the sort of same things for organizations. [00:27:53] Speaker B: And so I also see a lot of burnout. [00:27:56] Speaker A: Yeah, there's burnout. So what I, what I, what I think we're still trying to do is highlight that there is this tool in the toolbox called an interim and it's not sort of like a substitute teacher at work. That there's a lot of skill involved in this and that there's a specific benefit that you get. And so before you sort of do the knee jerk reaction of just saying, well, we just won't have a CEO or we'll just promote someone from, in or a board member, that there's this other option that you really need to pay attention to that can have immense benefits for your organization for some of the reasons I already stated. So I think we're still trying to highlight that part, the benefits of interims and getting people to think about it as a real tool in the toolbox. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. An asset, not just a, a gap fill. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:28:53] Speaker B: It's good. [00:28:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:54] Speaker B: Hey, just coming back to this non profit survival guide. What, what's that about? [00:29:03] Speaker A: You know, I've done this, I've done seven interims now. And so I was everyone. I get so much learning and so it's like I want to, I want to try to codify this and see, you know, if I can not just have them in my head, but put them on paper. Right. One of the best ways to learn something is to teach it. [00:29:24] Speaker B: That's right. [00:29:25] Speaker A: So this is my, my way of teaching it. And it sort of unfolds. It's. It started like unfolding almost like a, a fiction thriller. Right. Like Problem, Right. The controversy that spurs it and then the call from the board. Right, yeah. [00:29:45] Speaker B: Conflict, protagonist, antagonist, climax school, which feels. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Like my first day in the office. Right. And then the first 30 days and what do you do? And like. But then there's also some really good meaty stuff in there. Like, you know, I talk about the empathy tour, which I already mentioned, but then I think I have an article coming out soon or maybe out about, like, what do you do if you can't make payroll? Like, what do you specifically do? Where do you look? How do you make sure that doesn't happen? Right. And so there's some really, like, tangible advice in there too. And these are coming from real life experience. So it's gotten a fairly good reception. And so that's encouraging. But internally it's just helped me codify what I've learned. [00:30:33] Speaker B: Take this. Do whatever you want with it. You should write that book. You should write. You should know. Really, like, I would. I could see that being a really cool, like an allegory, the teaching allegory for the, for the sector to write this sort of dramatic, almost action, action movie kind of novel about the, the. The adventures, the unpredicted adventures of an, of an interim CEO coming into an organization. That, that just. That concept, really. That sounds so cool to me, man. [00:31:05] Speaker A: Well, I may need your help finding an agent because I have no clue about how to publish books. [00:31:09] Speaker B: You can self publish it. You can self publish it. Do a TEDx, talk on it. Do a. Yeah, that would, that would just be really cool. Anyway, I don't mean to sidetrack you, but when you said that, I thought, well, he's saying it tongue in cheek, but that actually sounds like a really cool. That would be a neat book. [00:31:22] Speaker A: It's a hero's journey because, like, you solved the big problem that you got in there and things are looking up, but then the second shoe drops and you're like, worse than you were before. Right? I mean, it's. And then at least, I mean, knock on wood with all my seven organizations, you know, you leave them in a better place having hired a permanent CEO who is an all star, just a rock star. And so I feel good, like, about how the story ends and it's not about me. Like, I wouldn't want it to feel like it's about me because, you know, I think the worst thing to do with any of these stories to come in is and say you're Mr. Fix It. You don't want to come in and say, hey, I'm here. Everyone step back. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Save your complex. [00:32:09] Speaker A: Right. That just makes people feel stupid or fearful. What I really view it as, as a catalyst, as an orchestrator. Like, I'm here to take all the good ideas that staff and board have had that have been stymied in the past, but now can bubble up, and I'm here to actualize those and to make you shine as bright as you can be. And so I'd want the story to be about everyone's effort, not just my effort. [00:32:38] Speaker B: I love your use of the word catalyst in this context because most people misuse that word. We often think that, that a catalyst is a, is a founder or, you know, just a change agent that creates something. Catalyst in the scientific environment. Right, Right. Ends up removing itself. [00:33:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:05] Speaker B: It changes the process and the, and the, the string of events and literally the chemical sequence, but removes itself and, and remains itself unchanged. I don't know if I'm saying that exactly right, but that we, we learned that in Biology 101. He was talking about a catalyst high school. [00:33:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:29] Speaker B: And. But that's a catalyst, and that's what you're talking about to be, to, to leave knowing that you've created some sustainability that's there even after you leave. [00:33:40] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I, I appreciate you pointing that out because I do try to. It does feel apropro. And maybe we can get one of your scientific listeners to tell us where we're right and wrong here. But as I understand from high school bio, a catalyst lowers the amount of required energy to make a chemical reaction happen. Right. And so I don't know, that's, that's what I'm trying to do is actualize these things at a way that's easier, quicker, more expedited, makes a ton of sense versus the one that would have had to happen if I wasn't there. [00:34:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And to our listeners who are scientists out there, don't, don't unsubscribe from the show just because I slaughtered the scientific explanation of Catalyst. It was, it was told to me in a very, in a layman's, like, can I understand this kind of way? And it always resonated with me because it's like, it's like non profits who, who think that sustainability is. If I keep getting the grant. And that's not sustainability. Sustainability is, I can keep going even if the grant ends. It's. I've created. It's self sustaining is real sustainability for, for a nonprofit. What are the things that nonprofits and I. So I know that that part of what you do, actually this was interesting to me. We can get into this. Not only are you helping in the interim, but you're also, you're, you also offer help and expertise in finding the next CEO. So companies spend a lot of money on search, big search firms. And I, I, I know a few that do a really good job as a search firm and I vouch for them and I recommend them all the time. But, but it is costly. If you can find the professional expertise that can kind of serve as the interim and help the search, which I've done once as well. One of the two times that I was, no, I did it both times actually helped to find the next CEO. Not only does it save them money, but the person who's helping you do the search has gotten in and really understood what it is you're going to need. Whereas a search firm has to dig a lot deeper for that and do the discovery that you've already done as an interim. But I'm going to shut up and let you just say more about that role, that component of your work in helping nonprofits find who's the person that follows that interim. [00:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So that is the most important thing I do. Right. Is finding the permanent Ed. And that is because that's going to be my biggest legacy. If we get that right, the organization is going to have positive results for years. If we get it wrong, they're going to be handicapped from the get go. And so hiring the right person is of utmost importance. Now usually, usually the board wants to hire a recruiter. And so I've, I've worked with many different recruiters. Small, big, with mixed results. Yeah, some I like, some I don't and, but I never go hands off even if we hire a recruiter. I'm doing a lot of active recruiting and so I'll sort of tell you two secrets which work the best for me. One is I send a ton of, of direct LinkedIn messages to potential candidates. And so, and that works. So one on one communication from the interim CEO to say, hey, we have this opening, I think you might be a fit, I'd love for you to at least apply and see if like that works wonders. And then the second, especially to get a diverse hiring pool, which I think is utmost importance, is I usually post the job on tons of LinkedIn groups that are not necessarily the ones that may be applicable to me. So I'll post it on the Latino Community Foundation, I'll post it on the Asian Pacific Islanders non profit professional organization. I'll post it on the LGBTQ group in San Francisco. I'll post it on the sort of Gen Z1. I'll post it everywhere so that I get a really diverse pool of applicants. And those two things I think are, are absolutely critical. [00:38:11] Speaker B: There's a couple side note on that real quickly, if I may, that, that hearkens back to a leadership development program, a chamber leadership development program that we were helping to sort of redesign a few years back. One of their laments was that their cohorts each year were not very diverse. And, and when we, when we started digging into it, some of the mindset is, well, I mean, we put it out there. It's not like we're not going to welcome, you know, a black or a Latino or whatever. And, you know, it's out. It's out there. And what they discovered was, sure, it's out there. But if your goal is to seek greater diversity, you have to seek greater diversity. [00:38:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:38:59] Speaker B: And so I just appreciate, I just wanted to pause on what you just said about where you post matters so that everyone, you know, you find the people where they are, otherwise they, they don't see the posting or they may not think it's for them or may not realize that that's an opportunity they have access to. So I just wanted to sort of pause on that a minute. You've hit on a tenant that doesn't have to do with being an interim director, but it, it is really a pretty powerful tenet when it comes to truly, truly seeking out the diversity you're looking for. And then if the pool of candidates, you end up with a, you still end up with the best candidates, still what you want, but you've increased your chances at the best candidate because you've, you've widened your net and been strategic about it. So thank you for that. I wanted to pause on that. [00:39:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the other thing I'll do in a CEO search is we don't just talk to them, but we have them do a project. Usually it's a presentation to the board about something. I find you learn a lot of new information when you actually see them in action, versus just having them answer questions. And then I do a ton of hiring. Like, usually when, when I come on, half the executive team has resigned, so I have many spots to fill. So I do this a lot. [00:40:23] Speaker B: You know, there's a, there's a theory that says, wait till the new CEO comes on and let them build their own team. [00:40:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I've heard that theory. I, I don't see a lot of non profits with their own team in their back pocket. Right. Usually they will have some people they like, but they're usually embedded in other non profits or like, I don't see them coming in with a. I've heard that. I just. Yeah. Don't see it. So I know if I was a permanent fundraiser, I mean, a permanent CEO and there was a gap for six, eight months of a chief fundraising officer, I would have wanted the interim to fill that with someone really good. So that when I get there and I'm brand new as a permanent, like there's already someone on the ground filling that position. Already up to speed. [00:41:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. Provided that you know that that's. That has been a good hire. I think part of what happens though is every CEO has their own style and culture that they want to build in an organization. So sometimes it's not a matter of whether that CFO has financial capabilities, it's whether or not that CFO is going to fit the culture and the, and the leadership style. The vision, for example, of a new CEO. So I'm not making a strong case for it, but it's, it's an interesting. Yeah, it's an interesting mix of. Of knowing that strategic planning is the same way. You know, I've seen organizations, and quite honestly, I've been a proponent of don't do a strategic plan for the organization without a permanent CEO already in place. [00:42:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:02] Speaker B: Because then that new CEO is going to come in. They get handed a plan they didn't take part in. Their vision is not tied to it. On the other hand, I can make a case for saying, what a gift. Right. Hey, walk in. And by the way, we already have a map for you. So those kinds of things, it's sort of. It's tricky as to how much you really want to do during an interim period. And what are the things you don't want to do during an interim period. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Yep. And smart people can go both ways on those. Right. As you just laid out, is there. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Anything you would say, don't do during an interim period for the organization? Not, not even just the, the interim, but is there anything you would say, here's something you don't do during an interim period. It's not a leading question. I'm just curious. [00:42:52] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I've gone both ways on strategy. When I started doing it. I mean, with all these interim gigs is usually a. They're usually rudderless. They usually are lacking a strategy. And so my propensity at the Time was to step in and help them do it. Now I'm a little more reticent to do that for the reasons you outlined. Usually because there are more burning issues than actually the strategy. We usually have enough idea of what our mission is. We try to crystallize what our current one is. Better to put the rudder in the water. But we don't go through a whole strategic plan until we get a new CEO. That's probably my current way of thinking. Now, a word we've used a lot. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Is a bridge plan. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:42] Speaker B: And organizations feel good that we're. Maybe we're not going to put together a whole strategic plan. But. But a bridge plan at least gives us some clarity for a. For a day one horizon kind of look so that we're not just like rambling around trying to survive. So, you know, maybe. Maybe that's. Maybe there's an in between somewhere. [00:44:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I usually don't do a full org reorganization. You know, I'll move some of the chairs around. I'll definitely change the job descriptions. But I'm not trying to change the whole work. I mean, there's a. Usually in these interim gigs, there's so much instability already that I don't want to introduce additional instability. And so it's a triage kind of thing. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:31] Speaker A: And usually the very first things are, is finances and the culture. Those are probably the first two things I look at. [00:44:41] Speaker B: You know, it's interesting. I love your take on this. Those two words lead me to think I, I'm. I immediately envision that things like finance or even HR or admin. Some of those kinds of things are more the management side of the things and culture is more the leadership side of the things. You know, it's like we've got things we need to put in place, but we also need to lead people through this time. [00:45:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:11] Speaker B: How much of your work as an interim would you consider to be management work? Like almost like management consulting? I bet in a lot of cases versus leadership work. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Oh, it's hard to make a breakdown. But it's definitely both. Like take culture and AR hr. So there's definitely some HR things. Like if we don't have an H R I S system up and play, if we don't. Like one of my gigs, the handbook was about 15 years old right before social media and all that. So there's some things that we have to work out. But you're right, a lot of what I do is try to lead. And I try to. And leading to me means addressing the emotional needs of our staff. And as I said before, like number one is to build back trust. Now that's a. That's a. Sounds huge. But I do it in lots of small little things. [00:46:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:12] Speaker A: I'll have amas ask me anything. Like again, I'll have a town hall regularly scheduled every two weeks and basically. Or maybe once a month. Month. And it's ask me anything. Come in and if I can answer it, I'll answer it. I have no agenda except to ask your questions. Transparency, Honesty. Open. I'll report back to them a summary of what happened in the board meeting. So the board meetings aren't this big scary dark hole. Right. I'll tell lights this is what happened. Right. [00:46:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:43] Speaker A: Certainly have my one on ones. I'll report when I find out all the financial mess to mess of what I found. I actually report that back out to staff so that they're aware. Like I don't want to treat them like children that can't hear bad news. I want to treat them like adults who can be part of the solution. And so all these little drops in the bucket help to change the culture and build back trust. [00:47:09] Speaker B: Everyone needs to rewind 60 to 120 seconds and hear that again because it's another one of those things that transcend. We're not even talking about interim leadership anymore. We're just talking about leadership right now. [00:47:23] Speaker A: The little. [00:47:24] Speaker B: I. I've got it boy. The number of organizational leaders that need to hear and. And activate what you just said. That it's the little things that build the trust. I trust you with the knowledge. I'm going to share with you what's going on? Why would I hide it? I'm going to be present with you an open space for you to ask or even complain for that matter. I just. You need to speak. We need to hear your voice. Those little things build. Do those little things do big things. And, and so I really, I just really appreciate that. That's a. Yeah, that's a big. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Give me a couple more for your audience. Like if you're having one on ones, go to their office, not your office. [00:48:12] Speaker B: That's right. [00:48:12] Speaker A: Like I had one guy tell me like he had an office and a couch and he's like, you are the first CEO ever to darken my door. [00:48:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:48:23] Speaker A: You're the first CEO to sit on that couch. So there's management by walking around. Right. There's like show up for people's like. So if you have. If there's an event going on, your program manager has been working their tail off day and night to host this thing. But it's on a Saturday night and maybe you don't feel like going, you know, get your butt there, show up for them. [00:48:45] Speaker B: That's right. We, you know, a lot of leaders will say they have an open door policy. And what I challenge many of my coaches with is there's a difference between being accessible, which is great, and being present. And being present is being proactive. Meaning, okay, great, you have an open door policy. That means you can walk through it too and go to them. Why do they always have to come to you? So I appreciate that's good. [00:49:10] Speaker A: Now I ask, I asked something in return. Like it's a two way street. So the, the values and messages I usually ask then is, goes something like this. It is seek to understand, give the benefit of the doubt, assume positive intent, be kind and realize there's multiple truths to every situation. [00:49:35] Speaker B: Good stuff. [00:49:36] Speaker A: And like I said that so many times, my staff, when I left at one organization gave me a T shirt with those sayings on it. Those are greatly wear. Right. Because so I'm like, I'm going to be transparent, honest and open with you. Right. I'm going to do whatever I can to make you shine. But, but I, but it's a two way street. You got to give me something here too. [00:49:59] Speaker B: So we're going to wrap this here in a few minutes. We could, we, we just opened up three new episodes. We could explore, you know, on trust and everything else. But what would you say are, are two or three things that nonprofits should be doing and thinking about to mitigate loss of continuity in a crisis? Like know knowing what you've known now and seeing the different stories and having been through it as many times as you have now, what are some things you would tell nonprofits? Here's, here's the two or three things that end up being the levers every time. So say grace over these. [00:50:36] Speaker A: I mean, the first is finances. What I've found over and over again is that even smart, good natured, well intentioned boards get complacent in their fiduciary oversight duties. Right. And they basically just rubber stamp whatever the ED gives them. They're not looking into the reports, they're not reading what they were giving them. They're not asking hard questions. They may not even have a, an audit or a finance committee. And that is your number one job. And so you can be on good terms with your ED CEO. You can be chummy with them, but you gotta ask them tough questions. [00:51:16] Speaker B: I'LL add to that. It's not just tough questions. It's the questions at the right level. Boards love to ask questions about the finances. Why did we spend more on toilet paper this month than we did last month? But that's not getting at the issue. That's not doing the deep dives and asking the structural questions that I think you're talking about. [00:51:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Like when you get the findings back from the auditor and they may not be perfect. Right. Is not to say, well, how do we hide these in the report as well? It's the, like, follow the auditor's advice. You got to follow that trail. Right. [00:51:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:50] Speaker A: So, I mean, I think that's number one. Number two is an idea that it can't happen to you. A lot of people will say, my ed's been around. We're good, finances are good, ed's good, staff is good. But it can absolutely happen to you. Like, you may not even know some of the bad stuff going on. You have no idea if your ED is actually interviewing at other places. And you're one public controversy or one bad paycheck, one failed federal grant that gets revoked away from chaos. And so. Well, you need to have a succession plan, sort of a crisis plan. You need to have talked about this before it happens. [00:52:35] Speaker B: I get asked a lot if we do succession planning, and the answer is yes and no. We don't specialize in succession planning, CEO succession planning, for example, Although we've been around it. I've been around it all my career. What I usually do in that case is encourage organizations to go. Go a level above succession and build a continuity, an organizational continuity plan. Because the loss of your CEO is but one potential major change that can disrupt you. Your building can burn down. Your data can get lost. Your board chair and vice chair might both get transferred in their companies. You might lose a third of your money because of one grant. Your CFO might. Might leave unexpectedly, not your CEO. So where's the bench depth in the rest of the organization? I mean, there's so many things that can disrupt and so create a succession plan, but make it part C of your continuity plan. Think continuity. Most organizations don't have what I consider to be a strong continuity plan. [00:53:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think the third thing I would say is really think about your culture. Like someone said, culture eats strategy for lunch. Right. Because culture are the habits of your organization. And so think about how you're treating staff and who you're hiring and the DNA you're bringing on and the processes and procedures and all the unspoken communication that tells someone about your culture. Like, for example, if, if your CEO says staff are the most important, but they have to park in the far parking lot and the CEO gets to park in front. Well, like, your unspoken communication is going against your words, right? [00:54:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And their pay is, is under the median and, and their, their turnover rate is, is costing them money they don't even realize. And the toxicity that's happening, I mean, leaders who, what gets me is there's a lot of leaders who see toxicity in their organization and don't realize it. It's. It's the management. It's that, like, you set the culture. There's a, there's a saying that we use in influencer training, and I don't remember who made the quote, but your world is perfectly organized to foster the results you're currently achieving. Yeah, right. Your world is perfectly organized for that. Great. Congratulations. Everything you're enjoying in your organization right now, your world is perfectly set up to achieve that. So if you're wanting something different, you got to organize your world differently. [00:55:25] Speaker A: You got to do something differently. So, I mean, that takes. It's not only processes, procedures, emotional intelligence, it's who you hire. Like, talk about the importance of hiring. I really look for just bright, smart people who are emotionally intelligent. Like, subject matter expertise is farther down the. Because if they're bright, they can learn anything. What I can't teach is emotional intelligence. Being good to people. [00:55:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's another episode. Emotional intelligence. Hey, so how in demand are you like? And what I mean by that is I'm not imagining you would take on multiple interim CEO roles at the same time. And so you're only available every six to nine months. You have a waiting list. I mean, how, how. What do you, what kind of demand do you see? I'm imagining that if there's a whole network of executive interims, executive directors in one region of the, of the state, like that, there must be a pretty high market for it. [00:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there is. I still like. It's both a yes and no question. Interims are in demand. I think there's still a place to grow that market for more groups to experience those benefits. Right. To catch me. I'm only available usually every 12 to 18 months. And sometimes the, like, I'll get a job in a week and sometimes it'll take two months. Usually in those, the interim periods between my interim work, I'm doing some consulting or I'm taking a break. [00:57:10] Speaker B: I'll bet I Call it a success. [00:57:12] Speaker A: Break because you sort of need to unwind from the stress of it all. But I do, I, like, this is going to sound sadistic and maybe be careful what I wish for, but, like, I do like the, the big, meaty, thorny organizations that need a lot of work. Like, and that's, that's where I get really jazzed about. So if they're out there, I'm happy to come talk to you. Currently, right now, I'm in my interim period. I'm on my success break, so. [00:57:47] Speaker B: All right. So you just do podcasts. [00:57:50] Speaker A: Yeah, just do podcasts. [00:57:51] Speaker B: You know, honestly, it sounds fun. I mean, I, I, I could, I could see myself enjoying. Because you get to come in, be a leader, demonstrate, you know, add value, use your gifts and talents in a way that really makes an impact. You don't, you don't have to worry about, you know, is the board gonna love me three years from now. You do get to kind of walk away and go to the next thing. And I think it's really good, particularly for chargers and fixers, to be able to do that thing. It's, I, I would imagine it's really healthy and valuable for someone who needs movement and change every once in a while, you know, pretty, pretty often to change your environment a little bit. [00:58:36] Speaker A: So, yeah, I would say, like, it's sometimes fun, it's sometimes incredibly stressful, like when you can't make payroll or you're facing a lawsuit. Yeah, it's not so fun. But what I would say 100 of the time is, it's very meaningful. [00:58:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:52] Speaker A: Like, to watch these organizations go from point A to point B and then to graduate them to a permanent CEO. I mean, it's like sending your kids off to college and just being a proud papa. [00:59:05] Speaker B: So I'm gonna say something real provocative to wrap the show with. What is the. And you don't even have to answer this. I'm just gonna ask them to throw this question out in the atmosphere. What is a role for, for an, an interim CEO whose job it is to shut the organization down? We, I've seen a lot of nonprofit. I mean, you, you know, the vast majority of nonprofits are very small. I mean, there's, you know, so many. So, so many. There's, there's way too many, in my opinion. I've said that loudly. And a lot of them need to just stop. They're creating donor fatigue, fragmentation of scarce, limited resources, inefficiencies in solving social problems, dysfunctions at best, across, you know, and so what the role would be for someone whose job it is to go and help. Help gracefully shut down or merge non profits who really don't have the capacity to make the impact they would love to make so that someone else can. [01:00:20] Speaker A: Yep. [01:00:20] Speaker B: I don't know why I just thought of that, but no, it seems like a role. [01:00:23] Speaker A: It's a niche within my niche. Right. The niche of interim executive directors. But there's an another niche of people who just do mergers and shutdowns. And those are like, you gotta gobble them up if that's what you need. I totally agree with you. There's too many non profits, there's too many little mouths to feed, too much overhead and all that kind of stuff. We do need to do more of it. And I would say if you're thinking about that, like, do the merge, not the bankruptcy. [01:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:51] Speaker A: Bankruptcy lawyer will cost you 700 to $1200 an hour and you will face lawsuits emerge. You can do it. You can do it gently and authentically and hire an interim who has done it before. Yeah. [01:01:10] Speaker B: Good stuff, Jim. There's two questions I like to ask all my guests to wrap my shows with. This is a show about leadership. So, okay, who is a leader in your life? That comes to mind immediately as someone who's had profound influence on your leadership and who you are as a leader today and why. [01:01:29] Speaker A: Oh, that's a hard question, you know, but I'm going to answer that. And like, there have been some board presidents that I've worked for and with in these interim. And again, you're in like, in a bunker in a foxhole. And we've become really close because we worked really well together under a crisis situation. And those are the two. There's two in particular. One, I'll mention it by his name is Reverend Dale Weatherspoon. He's the pastor at a local Methodist church who was also my board president when I worked for grip, which was Greater Richmond Interfaith Program. And there we ran a homeless shelter, a soup kitchen, homeless services, affordable how to sell housing, affordable housing and homeless outreach camps. And I mean, it's just his strength with empathy. I just thought that was really amazing, but, like the best. But there's been a number of board presidents like that. And I learn a lot from them as they do from me. I guess that's how it ends. [01:02:52] Speaker B: I like that idea of, you know, sharing a common challenge. You do form a bond when in the crucible of leadership in a crisis and working through something together. You have some shared, shared aspirations from shared skin in the game and true partnership. That's a pretty interesting concept. [01:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:11] Speaker B: My last question is, you're at the top of a mountain. You got a megaphone. All the leaders of the world are at the bottom of the mountain. To hear Jim Retu's 15 second sound bite on leadership, the thing that you would say, this is the most important thing for all leaders to keep in mind, what would that be? [01:03:28] Speaker A: I think it's two words, not 15. It's build trust. It's all about trust. Trust has to be your foundation for everything you do. Nothing else will work if you don't have trust. [01:03:41] Speaker B: Couldn't say that much better. By the way, I just want to say for our listeners, Jim, despite all of the things he has shared with us that he has has done and all the nonprofits and missions in these different communities he's worked in, he is not 78 years old. Just want you to know that he's just done a lot. He's done a lot. Jim retu.com j I m r e t t e u.com also look him up. That's what I said. No it's not what I said. Why do I do do that? [01:04:15] Speaker A: That's all right. [01:04:16] Speaker B: Jim retu r e t t e w jim ritu.com a lot there a lot about more about interim leadership you'll find on the website. Check him out on LinkedIn. Look for that non profit survival guide. Reach out to him for more information and what he can do. Jim, thank you so much. It's been really generous, really engaging for me if not for anybody else. So I appreciate you coming on. [01:04:41] Speaker A: I really appreciate the time. Thank you Patrick. [01:04:43] Speaker B: See you here next time folks. Lead on.