Episode 117 - 5 Things with Ron Harvey

[00:00:31] Patrick: It's Ron Harvey Day at the leaders perspective. You know what that means if you are a listener follower of this show, you know Ron Harvey already. He comes on about once a, not often enough, but maybe once a quarter. Yeah, probably once a quarter, something like that. And we do what I'm gonna start calling five things with Ron Harvey. And so when Ron comes over, it's unscripted, unprepared. I mean, literally, he walked in, goes, what are we doing? I said, just put your headphones on. You'll find out five things with Ron Harvey. What I like to do with Ron, by the way, Ron is just a consultant and leader and guru extraordinaire. He is the, I always want to call you the president, but I think I'm promoting you when I do that. You're the chief operating officer of global Cork strategies and consulting, and we met a number of years ago, just kicked it right off. Had just kindred spirits and appreciated each other, respected each other's skills and talents. And we've collaborated on some things and we just catch up here and there. And Ron is also on our advisory board here at the leaders perspective. So he gives of his time and talent and insight to help us do what we do better and just give us good critique and ideas and help us to vet strategies and products and things that we're working on. And I just like to have him on the show every once in a while, too. Here's what I like to do. I like to present Ron with a few things that come up in my coaching conversations with executives that I'm coaching and get his take on it. So, you know, in code, when I'm in coaching mode, of course, I try not to actually give the solutions, but that's what Ron's for. Ron comes in, gives the solutions. But I do, I do love your take on these things, Ron, because sometimes they align with what I'm thinking and trying to guide my coaches and other times they challenge me. So I just want to, as always, welcome you to challenge me and disagree with where I might stand on something. I want to get those perspectives. I'm super stubborn about my own way of thinking, as a lot of us are. But you just have not only a wisdom, but to me just a quick wisdom. You seem to just always be on the ready and one of these days I'm going to catch you and you're going to go, dang, I don't know what. Anyway, how you doing? What are you working on these days? [00:02:56] Ron: I'm good. I probably say the thing that I'm probably excited about and always blend family with business is this past weekend celebrating my mother in law 94th birthday and watching her walk around the house at 94 with no glasses and full of energy. I'm like, I really hope I'm in shape and can do all that. I mean, I'm wearing glasses now, so I flung that test already. [00:03:18] Patrick: Yeah. No, not gonna get there. [00:03:20] Ron: Yes. Yes. [00:03:21] Patrick: Yeah, I love that term. Mother in love, too. I'll pick that up from you. Yes, I love that. 94. [00:03:26] Ron: 94. I mean, she just moved around and, you know, we gave her hugs and we gave her, you know, a lot of stuff and she said, hey, what about my cash app? I'm like, at 94? What do you mean cash app? [00:03:38] Patrick: No signs of slowing down? [00:03:39] Ron: None. [00:03:40] Patrick: That's incredible. How awesome. What are you working on? On the work front? [00:03:45] Ron: Yeah, there's a lot happening right now that's exciting because people are. Leadership is at a risk across the entire society, you know, so we get a lot of requests for trying to keep their teams together and keep energy and engagement and keep a positive environment. So there's this division that's happening in every walk of life and leaders are struggling. We're trying to figure out how do we partner with people that we want to work with and help them keep their best employees. And it's not easy right now. It's a tough time to be a leader. [00:04:15] Patrick: Yeah, yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. And we could talk about why. There's several factors that come to mind. But you mentioned teams and part of what, one of my five things to go over with you here has to do with teams. I'm coaching more teams these days and I am in the full disclosure, I'm in the middle of an amazing, amazing program. If you're into coaching, and you may have come across this, Ron, but doctor Peter Hawkins. [00:04:52] Ron: Yes. [00:04:54] Patrick: I'm taking his full practitioner program the year long on systemic team coaching. Wow. I'm going to hit you with that in a minute. But just a quick, quick sort of preview of it, just learning what the actual nuances of a team actually are and what coaching a team looks like and how that looks different from coaching an individual. And then the very gray areas between coaching, training, and facilitating and consulting. Yes, some gray areas in there. [00:05:30] Ron: Absolutely. [00:05:31] Patrick: And some places where you kind of move in and out and give yourself permission to move in and out. I've probably asked you this before, but these days, are you doing, what would you consider that you're doing more coaching or more consulting? [00:05:43] Ron: I'll probably say it depends. And why? I say that it's client based. There are times when I find myself doing more coaching because of what the request is. Then there are times when I find myself in a consulting space, but I know what hat I'm wearing, and the client knows what hat I'm wearing. And as you listen to the show, I have to think every time, what makes it our friendship? I mean, you talk about, you know, how valuable I may be, but Patrick is the person that, when we first met, we did jail really quick. But he's a lifelong learner. I mean, every time I see him, he's into something getting better, and he doesn't ever lower the bar. So I watch and appreciate that because it keeps me motivated. Like, there's more to learn, and you're always excited about it. So as much as I may add value, you add just as much value because you're constantly learning what's next to help your clients. [00:06:29] Patrick: Are you reading my notes? That's my number four thing. I'm gonna get to that. [00:06:33] Ron: We too much in sync, Patrick. [00:06:35] Patrick: I'm gonna get to that. I'm gonna get to number four here in a minute. So you've hit on two of my things already. You ready to start? [00:06:41] Ron: I'm ready whenever you are. [00:06:42] Patrick: I coach leaders who are not the CEO. Sometimes they're in the C suite, and sometimes they're in middle management. More often than not, this challenge comes up in middle management, where a coachee is just frustrated. And, you know, I could say it's because of the system that they're in, but they're frustrated by their system. They're frustrated by their leaders. They're frustrated that they, they're in coaching and they want to do the right things. They want to bring their best, but they're. They feel locked, they feel limited by the people around them. [00:07:17] Ron: Yes. [00:07:18] Patrick: And so you, you get, I wouldn't say complaining. It's not that my coaches are complaining to me, but they're trying to say what the barriers are for them in doing everything that they want to do. So they're frustrated with their leader. They're frustrated maybe even with some of their teammates who aren't stepping up to the accountability and that impacts their work. And as the coach and coachee relationship, I'm trying to keep them focused on them. [00:07:47] Ron: Yes. [00:07:48] Patrick: Can't coach who's not in the room. That's one of our coaching rules. But how do you guide managers through that storm? How do you help managers navigate? What would be some of your tips to moving past this stuck place of I can't move because of someone else and I have no control over them. How do I get in the right mindset? [00:08:15] Ron: Yeah, I mean, phenomenal question. Been there, serving 21 years in the military. There is a system. So the reality is there's a system in probably every organization that you're going to ever encounter. What may help or what did help me is figuring out based in that system, what's the most effective thing that I can do to make some sort of an impact, to move the needle. And it may not be completely changed the whole course of the organization, but can it move the needle? So I figure out where's the one thing I can do that over time will gain some momentum, because there's one thing that all of us can do to change something in the system. But if you get frustrated, which I will probably advise most people, you know, if you listen to, if you watch the movie, what is the movie where they talk about all the emotions inside out? It's a movie that's phenomenal. It talks about all your feelings, anger, sadness, love, happiness and all those things. It's okay to have those emotions. It's not healthy to react to all of them as they're happening to you. So I would tell most people in that space, I would ask a lot of questions. What's the most effective thing you can do? If you can pull one lever to move it five yards, what can you do to move the ball five yards? You may not cross the end zone. You might not cross the end zone for a year. But if you can move the ball down the field five yards at a time so you can have some momentum in progress, people will see it. And you don't have to have such a hard time addressing issues because they see momentum. People like to win, so help them see the winning. There are tons of systems, and I can tell you, anybody that's listening, as a veteran know you, you're in a system of systems of systems of systems. And there's an acronym learning to use in every system this applies. It's called pets. Politics play a part. Whether it's office politics or external politics, egos play a part. In every system. Then there's this thing called turf wars that play a part. People want to protect turf. That's. And then there's just this stuff, just stuff that don't even deserve to be in the conversation. So I said, what are the pets that's happening, that's getting in the way, that you got to figure out a way to navigate through? And so it's like gps. Where is the. Where's the reroute? There's a reroute in every system that still allows you to stay loyal and dedicated to the bigger picture and still be able to help the organization get better. [00:10:38] Patrick: Yeah, and you mentioned gps, so the analogy to carry it a little further and just put more emphasis on the frustration. Yes. But, Ron, I'm in the backseat of the car and I don't have any control over the wheel. And my supervisor or my boss is going down a bad, bumpy road that's going to lead us to a bad place. And I'm trying to be fulfilled and exercise my own, you know, enjoy a sense of self efficacy and. And do what I do, but this is not good or it's toxic or it's bad. And I just. I feel like I don't have a voice. [00:11:11] Ron: Awesome. Sorry that you don't. You don't have a voice, is what I would tell this person. What's the one thing on your boss's agenda that you can actually meet the requirement of? Because you gotta have to find a way to. To still labor in love with this person that you may not have a good feel for. I can tell you that I've learned to work through things that I may not have done myself for the greater good of my boss. And sometimes you have to fix what you didn't break, and you gotta help those that don't wanna be helped. And that's literally carrying a weight uphill all the time. And so when you think about, what would I use as an example? When I went to combat in Iraq, there were people that did not want help, needed help, knew that we could do it. [00:11:55] Patrick: Iraqis, you mean? Yes. [00:11:57] Ron: So when you land in those situations, people will feed off of how you stay consistent to who you are versus what you're doing. So I had to learn to say, hey, my character, my integrity, am I doing the right thing? I just. I'm gonna keep doing that until you see and appreciate it, and then you'll give me more space. [00:12:13] Patrick: That's so good. I don't think we realize the impact we have on others just by our own demeanor, how we're carrying ourselves, how we're handling the situation. Our emotional intelligence rubs off on other people because there are people who are going to. It's like the, you know, don't. Don't let them see you sweat kind of thing, you know, so that. So that they'll. They'll fill the confidence level. There's two things we'll move on pretty quickly. I love what you're saying. Systems within systems within systems. Find one thing. Find something that you can make a difference around. Add value, to use your word that you use a lot. Find something where you can add value. Then there come those times where you just have to have the crucial conversation, too. [00:12:59] Ron: Yes, there are times. And I think when you're having a crucial conversation, you still gotta make it safe. [00:13:04] Patrick: That's right. [00:13:04] Ron: Because if I don't feel safe, and if you're just about your agenda, and I'm not saying not have one, but if you and I are talking, Patrick, the agenda has to be the person in front of you. It can't be this thing you pulling out your back pocket of what you wanna get accomplished. It has to be the individual in front of you. So the first thing I'm gonna take care of is a person in front of me in all situations, or, yeah. [00:13:23] Patrick: Yeah, their interests, which in the case of, if it's a CEO I need to talk to, then their interest includes the organization. So it's not, hey, I'm not happy, or, hey, I don't like doing this work, or, hey, I don't like your idea, it's, hey, I think the team could function better here. I think we could meet the mission better if we did this, or. I'm a little confused. I need some clarity around your vision on this. [00:13:48] Ron: That's phenomenal. I mean, so if you're the CEO and I see that this thing that you want to get done may not be in the best interest of what you want to get done. Yeah, I would pull that back to the front forefront, say, hey, patrick, I noticed this is what you really want to get accomplished. Awesome. I'm on board. Do you mind if I share something else that may actually move this a little faster in the direction that you want to go that I don't think we've thought of yet. [00:14:09] Patrick: I talked to so many people who are afraid to have that conversation, and sometimes it's because the leader hasn't made it safe. [00:14:16] Ron: Yes. [00:14:16] Patrick: Other times it's because the person doesn't know the leader has made it. Like they don't. They don't. I've talked to leaders who said, I want, I'm begging. I'm begging for you to give this feedback. And yet people still seem to be a little bit reluctant and reticent to speak up. [00:14:33] Ron: Absolutely. And here's why. We as a society, we have gotten to the place where it's unhealthy to give feedback to your boss. I don't agree with it, but it's the harsh reality of where we are. And so people don't receive feedback as much. So we have to become really, really good at giving feedback. But I'll tell every leader there's just 360 leadership in mind. John Maxwell talks about it all the time. You got to lead down, you got to lead left and right, and you got to lead up. Well, in order to lead up, you always, always got to figure out a way to connect with your supervisor. And let me be honest, if you're going to be good, you're going to take a risk. It involves risk. So hopefully you build up enough equity with that boss to take some risk that you can recover from. [00:15:16] Patrick: Yeah, that's good. There are no guarantees. [00:15:18] Ron: None. But they're risking everything. If you're gonna be effective, like, really, really effective, you're going to take some risk. [00:15:26] Patrick: Otherwise, you choose your battles and you settle into it and you, and you. [00:15:30] Ron: You just ride it out of this. [00:15:31] Patrick: Right? [00:15:32] Ron: Yeah. [00:15:32] Patrick: Which. So then there comes the time you're in the wrong place. [00:15:36] Ron: Yes. [00:15:37] Patrick: Cultures values don't meet yours. [00:15:39] Ron: Yes. [00:15:40] Patrick: And the boss is just toxic, or whatever it is. And you're the one who just has to say, I can't. [00:15:49] Ron: I can't do it. I mean, I served in the military. I can remember I was a young non commissioned officer at the time, and I was running an organization, an office, basically. And the colonel came in and was really. The military would allow you to be as mean as you wish to be. You just got to choose if you want to be that person or not. I mean, because of ranking, because of position, and it's brought up with yelling and screaming. I mean, that's a part of the organization. I just chose not to be that person. And this, this boss came in probably three levels above mine. So there's my boss, then that boss, then that boss, all three of them in my office. And this guy is literally just doing everything he can to be destructive. It's probably the best way to say it, but everything he was saying was inaccurate. Like, all the information you were sharing was not accurate for us to get the job done. And I politely say, I respect it. Thank you for sharing. Do you mind if I show you what the regulation says we're really supposed to do? And he looks at me. He pauses. Sure, go ahead. In a very demeaning manner. I said, well, here's what the regulation says, which is opposite of what you're asking us to do. I'll be happy to do it, but I need you to sign saying, you asked us to do this. [00:16:59] Patrick: That's a crucial conversation. [00:17:00] Ron: That's a crucial conversation. And it's risk associated with it. But my entire team would have suffered had I not fallen on my sword for it. [00:17:06] Patrick: Yeah. [00:17:07] Ron: So I was okay with taking the injury to protect the ones that didn't have a voice, that couldn't make a difference. And sometimes you got to take that risk because you. That's what you put in for. Leadership is dangerous. Leadership is risky. Leadership is challenging. Leadership is rewarding. Leadership is fun. But you can't just have all the fun parts of it. [00:17:24] Patrick: Well, that's what makes it a crucial conversation. In fact, if I'm remembering the framework right, in the actual framework of crucial conversations, the criteria is there's a disagreement. [00:17:35] Ron: Yes. [00:17:36] Patrick: Emotions are at play. And there's something significant at stake. [00:17:40] Ron: Yes. [00:17:40] Patrick: And that's the risk part. There is something significant at stake. Probably many things at stake. Including your job. [00:17:48] Ron: Absolutely. Your job, your reputation, your brand, what you're trying to get accomplished. Your mental wellness. [00:17:54] Patrick: Yeah. [00:17:54] Ron: Like all that's at stake. [00:17:55] Patrick: Yeah, man. [00:17:57] Ron: But what does it cost you not to have it? [00:17:59] Patrick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then stop complaining. You know, suck it up, buttercup, is what they say. I also wonder sometimes if people have more influence than they think. So we, you know, we use the CIA model. [00:18:14] Ron: Yes. [00:18:15] Patrick: What do you control unilaterally? Your hands are on the knobs and levers. You're the one who can actually change a system, and maybe you're the one in the way. [00:18:24] Ron: Yeah, absolutely. [00:18:25] Patrick: What are the things you don't control? Because you're not in the position of authority, but you can influence them. That's the I. So, which is where Maxwell would say, where leadership lives is in the eye. Management lives in the sea. Leadership lives in the eye. And it's artful. And so I think a lot of people miss opportunities where they could have influence. If they think about how to bring in a valuable, respectful, contributing way, the feedback they need to bring or the change they need to bring, or the risk taking they need to bring. That's influence. [00:19:02] Ron: It's amazing, Patrick, that people will take the time to build the relationships. And when risk shows up, we won't cash in. [00:19:10] Patrick: Oh, boy. I'm hearing that, literally hearing that this week. [00:19:14] Ron: We won't cash in. I'm like, wait a minute. Timeout. [00:19:16] Patrick: Yeah. [00:19:16] Ron: You've invested, build up this relationship, have the equity in. Built in. [00:19:20] Patrick: Right. [00:19:21] Ron: And it's time for you to leverage the equity. [00:19:23] Patrick: So good. [00:19:23] Ron: And you won't cash in. [00:19:24] Patrick: So good. Yeah. [00:19:25] Ron: Your relationship can withstand it. I mean, it may be uncomfortable, it may be hot, it may be, but you will recover. You will be able to get through it because you've built up the equity in the relationship. [00:19:35] Patrick: So, well said. We want to protect our capital instead of investing it. Like, let's do it for someone else. [00:19:40] Ron: That doesn't have the capital, that actually, it would be more harmful if they tried it. Actually, there's some things I can do and say in this community that some people that don't have the capital shouldn't do it and can't do. [00:19:51] Patrick: That's right. [00:19:52] Ron: And I'll recover from it. I won't get destroyed. They'll give me the benefit of the doubt. Cause I have the equity. [00:19:58] Patrick: I love your real talk. I mean, that's just real. It's just, you know, it's the way it is. Yeah, it's just the way it is. [00:20:04] Ron: I tell people, if you really want to be successful, work on your relationships. [00:20:06] Patrick: Yeah, that's right. Well, the number one driver of engagement in the workforce is an employee's relationship with their immediate supervisor. Not even the CEO's, unless that's their immediate supervisor. That relationship drives everything. [00:20:22] Ron: It's the one lever that I've learned over time in every organization. So I've been in corporate, I've been in the military. I'm running an organization. I do it in churches. I do it in communities. I do it on boards. The one lever all of us have that we can pull that will change your revenue, sustainability, projectability will always be your workforce. You can have the best equipment. [00:20:42] Patrick: That's right. [00:20:42] Ron: With a workforce with a bad attitude, that equipment is useless. [00:20:45] Patrick: That's right. [00:20:45] Ron: You can have the best process and systems. With a workforce that doesn't feel engaged and respected, you lose money. The one lever that we could all pull will be our workforce. And if you do really, really good at connecting and taking care of them as well as you can take care of them. Like, I got an email from one of our employees today. Thank you for you and your wife always caring about your team more than you caring about the numbers. We love working here. That's the message I really want, because we can get past the numbers or people will work for your money versus your mission. [00:21:20] Patrick: Well, speaking of money, there are leaders who don't want to pay their people what they're worth, but they don't realize the exponential increased amount they're paying on turnover. [00:21:35] Ron: Yes. [00:21:36] Patrick: And training. [00:21:36] Ron: Yes. [00:21:37] Patrick: And bad customer service and you know, the whole thing because they're not, not taking care of their people. Well, we're on the, we only have five things. We're on to numbers. Let's move on. Let me give you this one. [00:21:48] Ron: Yes. [00:21:52] Patrick: How, how do you lead coaches or people through the tipping point of committed action? [00:22:02] Ron: Yes. [00:22:02] Patrick: So I talked to coachees who, yeah, I need to do this. I, you know, I want to get better at and then some sort of broad category, you know. Yeah. I need to get, I need to get better at communicating. I know I need to do that. Yes, I remember doctor Jim Smith. I've told this story before, I don't know if I've ever told you, but it's so awesome. He does it so well. You know him, of course. He's my coach and trainer at LSI and he'll do this in front of a room with an actual coachee who will volunteer and say, yeah, I'll get some coaches. And I've heard him on the phone on some of our co coaching calls. He'll say this, he'll be talking and he'll say, so what do you think needs to happen? He says, well, you know, I, I don't know. I'm kind of thinking maybe I should, I should probably start, you know, I should probably start. I should probably change my schedule. I think I probably need to think about changing my schedule. And Jim will go, can I, can I share some, can I share with you what I just heard? Sure. I heard. I think maybe I should probably think about starting to, maybe I need to. He'll, he'll say it just like that. Like, oh, yeah, yeah. No, no, I do, no, I think I do need to. Okay, that's better. Let me, let me repeat that back to you now. You said, I think I need to. [00:23:21] Ron: Yes. [00:23:21] Patrick: That's closer, right? [00:23:22] Ron: Yes. [00:23:23] Patrick: I'm not hearing a commitment though. I think I need to. [00:23:26] Ron: Yes. [00:23:26] Patrick: Oh, no, I definitely need to. Oh, I definitely need to. That we, are we at commitment yet? [00:23:33] Ron: Not yet. [00:23:33] Patrick: And we're still not there. And he'll push that and it's all, it is kind of comical and it sounds almost, you know, two elementary, but it is word watching and it is you, you really do have to make this commitment. So here back to my question. How do you move people from this place of. Yeah, I need to. To literally articulating action and planning and saying, I'm going to. And getting to that accountability space as a coach without. Without being able to say, look, you said you were going to do this, Jack. Now, you know, if you're not going to do it, I'm not going to coach. You don't do that. Yes, but how do you move someone from conceptual to, here are the action steps I have to take. [00:24:17] Ron: Yeah, that's a phenomenal question because most people do get stuck there. I mean, it looks good. It breathes. Well, it feels good either when you're saying it, but it doesn't. And the reason it feels good, it doesn't require implementation. [00:24:30] Patrick: No, but you cognitively get it. I mean, they do know they need to do this. [00:24:34] Ron: Yes. [00:24:34] Patrick: And so, yeah, they think if they walk away with that acknowledgement, it'll just somehow they'll just do it. [00:24:40] Ron: Yes, and that's true. I mean, for most human beings, they think that because they think of it, it's gonna happen magically. So there are several questions that come to mind when someone says, hey, no, I know I need to do that. I say, that's. That's phenomenal. Congratulations. You've done the mental, the mental piece of it. You know for sure that you need to do this without you telling me that you're doing it. What would I see if you were doing it and they just paused and, like, what action would I actually see? What behavior would I see? What would I hear you saying? So I get them to tell me, well, I would be doing this, and I would do this, and I would do this all. Awesome. Now we have the three steps. When can we implement them? I help them visualize what I should see without them talking to me. [00:25:19] Patrick: Yeah, it's the question we use so much, what does success look like? [00:25:22] Ron: And I just reframe it for them because most people say, hey, you know, if this was happening, this is what I would be doing. I say, hey, you know what, Patrick? That's phenomenal. Without you talking to me, what would I see? And you can start to see people's behavior. I would behave like this. I would say this. I would wake up at this time, I would dress like this, I would do this. I would be nice to say, thank you. Awesome. So I can measure that because I want to be able to evaluate you without ever asking you any questions. So as I'm watching, what would I be seeing that I can evaluate and people will start telling you the activities. Now I can take and begin to embed those activities and hold them accountable. Say so. Great. Which three would you like me to hold you to? What standard, at what time and how often do you want me to watch? Yeah, that's good, because they begin to picture it. I mean, so one of the things I learned in sales training is word pictures are amazing because it allows people to pull what's in their head into their eyesight because it's stuck up here, but they don't visually see it. So we have to put a picture in front of them and we, but we let them put the picture versus our picture. [00:26:22] Patrick: I love. I want to come back to this and I don't want to, I don't, I don't want this to just blow over because I just learned a new coaching question from you. If you. If we weren't. If you weren't. Say it again. If you weren't talking to me, what would I see? [00:26:34] Ron: That's it? [00:26:35] Patrick: Yeah. If you weren't talking to me, what would I say? [00:26:37] Ron: Because people will explain it like. Like Jim. Yeah, I heard blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because you're talking. But if I say you can't talk, I just want you to be in action. What would I see? [00:26:48] Patrick: That's good. Oh, that's excellent. All right, man. See, that's why I do this. This is the, this is how I get certified in Ron Harveyism. I want to get your reaction to something I mentioned, this course in systemic team coaching that I'm in with Doctor Peter Hawkins. And it's intense. I mean, it's a year long. It's, you know, three times a month, you're in 90 minutes or two hour practicums with other coaches and you're really learning this stuff. And his books, which are numerous, are pretty academic, very research based. He's done a ton of work figuring this stuff out. And there's a term that he has introduced to me that I'm already starting to use. That's one thing I love about this program, is you can leave one practicum and your next client, the next day expert can just use a new tool. You can apply and they're effective. He uses the term outside in and future back. [00:27:43] Ron: Tell me more. [00:27:45] Patrick: That's what I said. And the future back was an easy one for me to get because we do, that's what we do in strategic plan. Right. We have vision. So you go out to the future and then you back up and say, all right, what would need to happen? It's just like the question we just asked. What would be different? What would look different? So that's the future back part. The outside in part is. And I don't. This one. I'm still trying to. I'm gonna think out loud with you right here on the show. I'm gonna back up. Hawkins talks about different levels of coaching. Okay. So I'm coming back to the outside in thing. Traditional coaching is one on one. It's the client does the work. The coach's job is to, as I say, draw out and elevate the coaches best thinking. [00:28:37] Ron: Yes. [00:28:37] Patrick: And it's all about the coachee. [00:28:38] Ron: Yes. [00:28:39] Patrick: Okay. That's traditional coaching. It's very effective. We know the model is effective. But then there's what he calls dialogic coaching, where there's more dialogue, not so much facilitation of one person's thinking. It's a little more of a partnership between the coach and the coachee. And you're co creating. [00:28:59] Ron: Yes. [00:29:00] Patrick: So you're serving the coachee as a little more support, not quite consulting. [00:29:04] Ron: Yes. [00:29:05] Patrick: But if you can kind of sort of envision the slight difference, the slight level up of that partnership, then he goes to the third level that he calls systemic coaching. Now, you may have heard that. I'm sure you've heard. I know you know this because anyone who's ICF certified has heard this. [00:29:26] Ron: Yes. [00:29:26] Patrick: You have to coach the person, not the problem. [00:29:29] Ron: Yes. [00:29:29] Patrick: Right. So coaching the problem is consulting. [00:29:31] Ron: Yes. [00:29:32] Patrick: Coaching the person is coaching. Hawkins says go beyond coaching the person, because the person you're coaching has stakeholders. [00:29:41] Ron: Yes. [00:29:42] Patrick: Deep levels of stakeholders. They're their teams, their boards, their peers, their customers, their vendors and suppliers, their families. Their customers families, their employees, business partner. Like the stakeholder list goes really deep. And as you said a while ago, that's why I said you were reading my notes. You said systems of. Systems of systems. So, systemic coaching is. It can still be one on one or it can be in teams, but it's about coaching. He calls it coaching the team through the leader. Yes, through the team leader and getting stakeholder voices in the room. And so I'm hearing good questions from him. Like, Ron, if your biggest customer, if your biggest client that you depended on the most were in the room right now, what would he tell you? He wished you would do better. So you start to get your stakeholder voice in the room, and you're coaching the system. [00:30:45] Ron: Yes. [00:30:47] Patrick: And it's a little bit of a rule break for me. Because you can't coach who's not in the room. But when you visualize it and when you roleplay that, you can get a little bit of an understanding of this action over here is actually going to impact my employees on this particular team over here. They're not going to like this. And here's why. And here are the ramifications. So that's the outside in. [00:31:10] Ron: I love it. [00:31:11] Patrick: Instead of starting from the leader and working out, it's coach from the outside into the leader. So I just, you know, sharing that with you as a, as a concept that I love it. I want to get your react, do what things come to mind as you hear that framework. [00:31:26] Ron: Yeah, I love it. Here's why. I started coaching for the military, and we did that without me knowing it. Every time we coached a senior leader, we coached them about every decision that they would make that would impact anybody they came in contact with. Because the decision that a military leader makes in combat in 30 seconds will impact three generations. [00:31:53] Patrick: Say that again. [00:31:55] Ron: The decisions that a leader makes in combat in 30 seconds will impact the next three generations. [00:32:03] Patrick: Wow. [00:32:04] Ron: Because if something doesn't go as well as you think, it's like, I can tell you about people in the military that served in my family and the things that's taking place, and you can still see how it's impacted them for longer than just those 30 seconds. But if you get the voice of the people, all the stakeholders in the room, most of us would make a different decision. [00:32:26] Patrick: So, again, you're reading my notes. Hawkins calls that the future generations stakeholder group. So there's six. He has six stakeholder groups, and I won't go through them all, but, like, customers, vendors, employ. Right. And then he has two categories. One's called the 13th ferry. I'm giving stuff away I probably shouldn't give away. I hope he's okay with this. I'm giving you full credit. Go to coaching.com and enroll in the certified practitioner of systemic team coaching program. Read doctor Peter Hawkins books. But this is, this is really powerful. The 13th fairy from, I think, Sleeping Beauty said the one. Right. The fairy who got left out and turned evil because the fairy got left out. So that category of stakeholders is, who are you not thinking about that? If they aren't happy, you're gonna know about it. [00:33:18] Ron: Yes. [00:33:19] Patrick: What's the stakeholder group you're forgetting about? And then that last category is the future generations of stakeholders. The decisions you're making now that affects. I love that. I love that military analogy there. [00:33:30] Ron: I'm working with the client right now and they're doing really, really well. Been in business for a while, but their entire organization has shifted in the last twelve months and they're going through this right now. And what I asked all the leaders in the room is exactly what we're talking about. Who are all the stakeholders that this will impact and not just the customers that are buying your products and services. We're talking about your customers is the manager that reports to you directly, like who are all the people? So start there and work your way, all the way out at least ten steps and listen to exactly what you're saying. And they were like, we haven't, we just got caught up in the metrics and the numbers in the profit share, but the profit share doesn't happen if you don't listen to all ten of the stakeholders because they will impact the quality of your product. And if you probably, if the quality of your product is it drops, then the people purchasing it will also drop and the people personal drop, so does your revenue. And if your revenue drops, your company draws, dries up. [00:34:34] Patrick: I'm going to put a paywall on this episode and I'm going to charge people $129 to listen to this. That's so good. Let me, let me hit you on, hit you with number four. And this is a personal question. [00:34:49] Ron: You, this is, you know, my open. So when I know I'm all in. [00:34:52] Patrick: I know you mentioned a while ago my being a lifelong learner and I do try to be. I'm in three. I'm actually in three different formal training programs right now. I'm also building my own and I also have one of my own that is, that's off to a great start. But yes, I'm reading, I'm learning. I would say I've been coaching a little over 15 years. My coaching ability has ramped up exponentially in the last two years. [00:35:22] Ron: Yes. [00:35:23] Patrick: Why? Because I'm pushing myself with some pretty big learning initiatives. I'm not talking about watching a YouTube episode or reading a book. I'm investing a lot. I'm investing thousands of dollars. I'm looking at, you know, I'm ready for another round of my own coaching. So I'm engaging with a coach. [00:35:47] Ron: Yes. [00:35:48] Patrick: How do, what do you do? How do you push yourself to the next level of excellence? I get asked the question. So you can answer this two ways. One, I really want to know from you, and two, tell me how you would answer this question. If some, if a coachie said, what should I be looking at? For professional development. How should I think about professional development for myself? [00:36:12] Ron: I'll answer that one first. [00:36:13] Patrick: Okay. [00:36:14] Ron: So if that question is asked, I say, well, first, tell me the three positions that you see yourself as a professional. What are the top three positions professionally that you want to be in that will drive what you should invest in. [00:36:25] Patrick: Positions as in titles? Like in jobs? [00:36:27] Ron: Yeah. I will let them go wherever they want to go with it, and we'll begin to get more specific. But I wanna give them permission to think out loud, basically. Hey, I see myself here. I see this, or I see this. Like, where do you see yourself in three years or four years or whatever the thing is. Whatever the timeframe is. Awesome. Great. What are we missing that you haven't added to this list yet? And then. So we can begin to build. Okay. If that's what you see yourself doing, let's begin to do research together. This is where we co create. What does it take for that to actually happen? What levers need to be pulled? But I want to start with the outside and work our way back in. [00:37:03] Patrick: Outside in, yeah. Future back. [00:37:05] Ron: Yes. [00:37:05] Patrick: That's it. [00:37:06] Ron: That's it. [00:37:06] Patrick: It's funny. You're doing these things without maybe having heard that framework or that, you know, like we didn't like, even in the military, you might add a thing. You called that, but you knew that's what you were doing. [00:37:16] Ron: You know, what's unique about it, Patrick, is in our conversations and all of my learning, it's like finally getting handlebars on your bicycle, because before you're just doing it, but you're all over the road. You're all over. And it's not Pacific. And then taking along a route and you're falling off and it just looks real, real wacky. And then someone gives you a technology, now you can actually drive that. And it makes sense. Yeah, it looks better. It sounds better. It feels better. It makes bicycle riding a lot easier with the technical. [00:37:45] Patrick: That's good. That's good. So. So how are you pushing yourself? Because you're. I mean, you're honestly, like, you are. I mentioned at the beginning of the show, you're always at the ready. You have so much wisdom. I know your military career had a lot, gave you a lot of that. But it's other things, too. It's your faith in your family and your business clients and your own learning and schooling. And how do you always think about what's next for me to learn formally and informally? [00:38:18] Ron: It's driven. Yeah. Phenomenal question. It's really. It's driven by what changes are happening. So everything that I'm thinking of is almost as though Covid Covid happened in the world changed, but people still behaving as though it didn't happen. So behaviors went back to normal behaviors, even though the whole world has changed. So for my organization and for me as an individual, my marriages, you know, with my kids and with my church and with my community, with my friends, I mature with those things that mature around me and say, what's changing? That requires me to change. So all my learning is so I can keep pace with what matters to me is I have to get better as those things are getting better. So as my marriage grows and it gets richer, I gotta be able to show up at that level as well. As my kids get older, I gotta show up and have that different conversation, you know? So we have a 36 year old son. The conversation I have with him now allows him to be who he is today because I continue to let me grow with him growing. So I constantly grow based on everything that matters to me, that's around me, that requires me to grow. And I asked someone the other day, what does your position require you to do? Not what you desire to do? Because sometimes what I desire to do is not required for anything except for stroking my ego. But there are some things that are really required for me to live life with the people that I want to live it with and be with. There's something about me that has to be able to meet that requirement. So I'm going to always pay attention. What does my life require with the people that I want to do it with? [00:39:51] Patrick: Wow. So you brought me to something else that I'm learning. We, you and I, have both heard the term systems thinking. [00:39:59] Ron: Yes. [00:39:59] Patrick: Systems design. And then we hear the term systemic. And I'm learning that the term systemic and the term systems are different. [00:40:11] Ron: Yes. [00:40:12] Patrick: And what I'm learning is that systems thinking is the understanding that you are a part of a system or that x is a part of a system. And so you look at this and you say, we got to consider the whole system. [00:40:25] Ron: Absolutely. [00:40:25] Patrick: Okay. Systemic, though, goes deeper. What you just described is systemic thinking, because systemic thinking has to do with how the system parts are all evolving and changing within the system. [00:40:43] Ron: Yes. [00:40:44] Patrick: Which changes the system. [00:40:45] Ron: Absolutely. [00:40:46] Patrick: It's like the atoms, the protons, and the electrons and the neutrons, they're all a part of an atom, which is all a part of a molecule, which is all a part of a cell. So systems within systems. But your description of what you need to learn or do based on the changes going on in the system. [00:41:10] Ron: Yes. [00:41:11] Patrick: Is systemic thinking. [00:41:13] Ron: Absolutely. And I have to give credit to, you know, to the military, I have to give credit to my parents. It was always what's changing around you that requires you to do it differently. The one thing that was important is if you don't change, you will be changed. And what I mean by that is at some point you become extinct. At some point, you become irrelevant. At some point, you're not good enough to do what your client needs because you did not change. [00:41:41] Patrick: That's good. And if you're, or, you know, take that to the organizational level, if your organization doesn't change, it will be changed. [00:41:48] Ron: But think about it. Most Fortune 500 companies are no longer around. [00:41:51] Patrick: Mm hmm. [00:41:52] Ron: Like, if you go back 50 years ago, most of those companies that we all looked up to got stuck in the system and didn't recognize systemic change. [00:42:00] Patrick: Yeah, that's good. That's good. All right. Well, part of that was just sort of part of this is introducing some of the new things I'm learning and getting ahold of. And really it's helping me understand the clients better that I'm, that I'm serving by being able to ask them some of the questions about, you know, well, what's changing and how is this? I mean, Marshall Goldsmith, we all know the book, you know, what got you here won't get you there. That's systemic thinking. [00:42:24] Ron: Yes. Yeah. [00:42:25] Patrick: And I think we get. [00:42:25] Ron: We get because it's comfortable. Let's be honest. If you don't have to change anything, it just stays. It could be comfortable, but that doesn't mean comfortable, doesn't mean success, just means comfort. [00:42:35] Patrick: Well, and if, and even if, as you're saying that, you know, comfort, that almost sounds like another word, is maybe secure. [00:42:44] Ron: Yes. [00:42:45] Patrick: It feels secure. You know, it's. It's a scary thing. [00:42:49] Ron: Yes. [00:42:50] Patrick: To have to change, to do something different. [00:42:53] Ron: Yes. And when you think about it, would I rather be so comfortable that it feels like a la z boy recliner that hugs you but keeps you there? Or would I rather be on a springboard because a lazy boy is comfortable, but that's not where I want to stay. [00:43:13] Patrick: It. [00:43:13] Ron: If I want to keep moving, it's just a reality. [00:43:17] Patrick: Even a springboard suggests I'm about to jump. [00:43:20] Ron: Yes. It means I'm moving forward. I'm going forward. And that could be scary. But the reality is, you know, as we continue to evolve, which is important, I surround myself with people. Like, when I walk in and I'm around you and I listen to what you're doing. I watch what you're doing. We always ask the question, what are you doing next? What are you up to next? Someone's going to help promote your growth and your learning if you let them. [00:43:41] Patrick: Hmm. Yeah. [00:43:44] Ron: And who's in your circle that pushes you to be better for the systems and the things that matter to you? I can absolutely tell you that. I'm, you know, we're doing a company retreat and it's about, hey, our goal is to be better. What does that look like? What will we see if you were just doing it? I don't put any of the retreat together anymore, I can tell you. I used to, I don't even, I just, I make sure they have all the resources. [00:44:09] Patrick: Yeah, well, those are the questions I like to ask. Even in strategic planning, you know, I don't like to get in front of a board and say, okay, it's time to create our vision statement. Because that's statement building, not vision building. [00:44:22] Ron: Yes. [00:44:23] Patrick: What I want to know is, what's different? What do you want to say is true three years from now that you can't say today? [00:44:30] Ron: Absolutely. Yeah. And I say that for, I said it for just about everything. For us. I mean, when you look at the conversations where I'm, where I'm learning what I'm learning, where am I showing up at? You know, there are a couple things. I go to some conferences for community, strictly community, because, you know, you're entrepreneur and you need community. You need other people like mine to have a good time. But then I go to some conferences strictly as a student, not saying anything or doing anything. I'm just a student because I need to be in this place of let me absorb as much as I can for my own growth. They're not sure if it conferences where I'm a subject matter expert and people are getting as much. You're there to give, I'm dare to give. So I find myself in all three of those throughout the year. I will tell you that at least quarterly, I'm in one of those rooms every quarter. Intentionally so. I'm very intentional. It's no accident that I'm going to be where I'm supposed to be at because it's pre planned, it's thought out, and it's really not about me. My agenda will always be the person in front of me, no matter who's in front of me. [00:45:26] Patrick: Yeah, yeah. Well, I've seen that. I've seen that. It's true. It's true. You live it. You live it when you come in here. All right, number five. [00:45:34] Ron: Yes. [00:45:34] Patrick: Last thing. I have this thing. You and I have talked about a little bit of this. I'm having this issue with having words hijacked from me, words that have taken on new connotations for people, negative connotations, and stripped or, or attempted to strip my ability to use those words in the more positive connotation that I've always heard them. [00:46:09] Ron: Yes. [00:46:10] Patrick: How diplomatically am I doing this so far? You know, I'll give you, I'll give you one example. I was with a group talking about their employee base and wanting to get more professionalized in what they're doing. [00:46:24] Ron: Yes. [00:46:26] Patrick: They're delivering a service that is a, you know, a very critical, very skill based. Actually, in many cases, what they're doing requires, like, a licensure and things. But they have got a team of employees who aren't all. It's not, it's not that they don't have a degree or they don't, but there's a professionalization to an organization. [00:46:49] Ron: Yes. [00:46:50] Patrick: And it's hard to describe for someone, but it has to do with systems and protocols. It has to do with training and competencies and growth and development of a skill set. [00:47:05] Ron: Yes. [00:47:06] Patrick: It does have to do with credentials and legitimacy in some of those credentials that are required to do certain things. But as we were talking about this, we had a couple of people in the team say they didn't like the word professionalize because it insulted people who didn't have a degree. [00:47:24] Ron: Yes. [00:47:26] Patrick: One of them, you know, actually said, you know, it's a, it's a racist. It's a racist term. [00:47:30] Ron: Yes. [00:47:31] Patrick: To say that we're going to professionalize our team. Now, you know, me, and we've had these conversations. I'm sitting there going, wait, what? [00:47:39] Ron: Yes. [00:47:40] Patrick: I mean, what. So, but I, but I'm, but I'm also wanting to hear that. I need to hear that. I need to hear where they're coming from. I need to respect it. And when I'm a coach, they're the client. So, you know, it was, hey, what word do you want to use? You know, what I, what I care about is what are you actually saying you want to do? Yes, because they were talking about what they needed to do with their team, and I brought out the, I said, so it sounds like you're wanting to professionalize. And then it was like, whoa. Whoa, on that. Whoa. So that's an example. The one I want to run by you is the word empowerment. Okay. I've been challenged on this word a few times, so here's full disclosure. And I'm pretty adamant about my position on this, so I'm going to share it with you and I'm going to invite you to say, Patrick, here's what you're not like. You need to change this. All right. Go right ahead and say it. And I might or might not. [00:48:31] Ron: Yeah. And for everyone. Patrick and I have real conversations. And I would tell everyone, you need to have someone that you have a strong relationship with, that understands your core values, who you are as a person, and you have that. So we've had some really deep conversations about everything that you probably hear and hear talk about in the world. Yeah, but you need someone that you can talk that's different than you about stuff that you're just not sure how to navigate it. Yeah, it's a safe space. [00:48:54] Patrick: Yeah. [00:48:55] Ron: So we've given each other that space. No, here's what I see it. No, this is absolutely insane. [00:48:59] Patrick: Yeah, but now we're bringing it to the room. [00:49:01] Ron: Yeah. [00:49:01] Patrick: So we're sharing it with leading the mirrors. [00:49:03] Ron: Yeah. So we get to let you learn it from us in real time. [00:49:04] Patrick: So here's the thing. Used the word empowerment the other day and got the feedback, and it's not the first time I've gotten it. Pretty sharp feedback. I don't like that word. Why not? Because you don't give someone power. Nobody gives me power. [00:49:19] Ron: Yes. [00:49:20] Patrick: Right. And that makes it sound like you have power that you're giving to someone else. [00:49:24] Ron: Yes. [00:49:25] Patrick: Okay. And I know where that's coming. I get it. I get the sentiment of that. I honestly do. And I didn't say this at the moment. In any time, I'd have been challenged with it. But I've been thinking about it lately. This person got me to think about it again. Which is good. Right? [00:49:43] Ron: Which is good growth thinking. [00:49:45] Patrick: Okay. And bear with me. Give me a minute to give you my take, and then I want to hear yours. Do we not give people power? My son turned 16. I give him the keys to the car. I tell him he can take it to the store. Have I given him power that he didn't previously have? I promote you to vice president of marketing, and I tell you, I want you to. Here's your budget, here's your staff. I want you to run this department the way you want to run it. I'm going to stay out of your way. I'm giving you the title, the authority that goes with it. I'm the one granting it to you, did I give you power in that moment? I looked up the word empowerment, and it does. If you look at most definitions, it actually, the first one is actually says to give, to give power. But I found a second definition in Webster, and it says this to promote the self actualization or influence of. Here's why. Here's why I'm challenging the word, rethinking it, listening. My definition of leadership, I've codified it. It's on our website, I teach it in my trainings, is that leadership is a window of opportunity during which vision, inspiration and empowerment converge to propel people toward a shared goal. That's my definition of leadership. A little lengthy, a little framework, but that's how I think, in frameworks, a window of opportunity during which vision, inspiration and empowerment converge to propel people toward a shared goal. I would like to get your experience with the word, your take on the word from the standpoint of, you know, we've had conversations of, is the word empower? Is it enable? Is it equip? Does it matter? And, yeah, so I remain fairly adamant about, no, I still. I still think I don't want the word. I don't want some of these words taken from me because they mean something else to somebody else, but I want to be sensitive to what they mean to somebody else. [00:52:09] Ron: Yeah. [00:52:09] Patrick: So how do I strike that balance? Just give me your take on all of it. [00:52:12] Ron: Yeah, I would say first for me, I mean, yes, I've used the word, and I can see both sides of the coin. And I can say based on where we are as a society, where everything's been challenged, I can see it being a challenge sometimes in some rooms, whether I use it or you use it, quite honestly, and it can be race driven, it can be gender driven, it can be religion driven, it can be political affiliation driven. We've gotten to the place where nobody wants to feel like anybody has to give them permission for anything, they ought to have permission to do whatever. And so, like, when you say, I'm empowering you, I'm giving, giving, it's like, oh, I gotta depend on you to make it happen. Not saying that's not accurate and it's not true depends on who I'm talking to. It depends on the relationship. My relationship with them would allow it to come across in a different way if I don't have the relationship equity or influence with them that I've had to establish already, any word that I use can go sideways really, really quick. So I'm going to build a stronger relationship. Here's what I will say. I'll say that I didn't really start hearing that word a lot until I got out of the military. The military doesn't use it a lot. As I reflect on, nowhere in the core values is the word empowerment. The military is all about providing opportunity to be of service to who you are responsible to and responsible for. So my service is promoting them, my service is sending them to school. What am I doing for them to assist them versus what am I giving? And in my mind, I can see me giving something to them. But even where Maya, we know Maya is our daughter, the generation is different. I can tell you my 1617 year old is different than my 36 year old. Totally different. So when I walk in and I'm dealing with the 16 year old, it's how I be of service, to make sure that she can achieve whatever that vision or that dream or the aspirations are. So I find myself being more service to her. I actually found, like, I was taught differently with the older kids. I felt like I, no, you have this because I did it. My mindset has shifted even when I work with her. Like, what's effective today at this moment, with who's standing in front of me? And people say, does that mean you flip flop? I say, no. What it means if I'm of service, who's in front of me? Because everybody has a different appetite and a different palette, and I'm okay with meeting them with that palate without losing me. Now what I'm not okay with, Patrick is losing me. I don't want to lose me in any room. I want to be authentic and I want to be real about what matters to me. But there are some things that are not that important or significant. And it's not who I am that I'm okay with modifying to take care of the person I'm responsible to. And that's my leadership. I'm responsible to and responsible for. Who am I responsible to? Who am I responsible for? And what do I need to be to do that for them? [00:55:10] Patrick: Boy, that's. [00:55:12] Ron: And I'm okay with that. [00:55:14] Patrick: Yeah. [00:55:14] Ron: Cause it gets. It gets me out of the way, it gets my emotions out of the way, it gets my feelings out of the way, it gets my biases out of the way, it gets my agenda out of the way, it gets some stuff that I was actually taught that's no longer relevant for this person in front of me. Think about restaurants. Years ago, restaurants didn't care about your allergies. Eat it or don't eat it. Come here or don't. Come here. Now, they intentionally want to be a better service. They ask you and they'll modify before they. We're going to charge you $2 to change that. Well, not necessarily. We can make that modification. So what used to be is no longer. So I feel, as a leader also got to be the same way. What do I change in this recipe that's going to work for you to process and digest? I will change the recipe every day. [00:55:58] Patrick: All right. All right. Well, folks, you just, you just heard a moment where I got. I got challenged. That's a really, that's a really great way of framing that. I'm getting potentially hung up on a word. [00:56:17] Ron: Yes. [00:56:20] Patrick: And maybe not thinking about the relationship with the receiver of that word. I mean, I think of coaching. If I do draw out and elevate you to a higher place where you are doing more, I feel like I've empowered you. Not because I've given you power. [00:56:39] Ron: Yes. [00:56:40] Patrick: But because I've helped you find your power. [00:56:42] Ron: Yes. [00:56:43] Patrick: Either way, you're empowered. [00:56:44] Ron: Yes. [00:56:45] Patrick: So I think of that. But that's my defense of the grammar. [00:56:50] Ron: Yes. [00:56:51] Patrick: And that's not, that's not my. That's not me thinking about how you're perceiving what that even means. [00:56:58] Ron: Absolutely, yes. [00:56:59] Patrick: And so for me, you know, with, with, again, a codified leadership definition that has that word. My audience, I don't always have a relationship. You know, if you're reading it for the first time and we don't have a relationship, I don't know how you're interpreting that. [00:57:14] Ron: Yes. [00:57:15] Patrick: Now, I don't. I'll have to think about that because I don't know if. I don't know if that necessarily makes me just say, yeah, you know, I should change it because I want to be me, too. But it does make me think about what. What hill I'm choosing to die on. [00:57:30] Ron: Yeah. Over language. Yeah. Think about it. Here's. Here's reality. If I don't have the relationship with you, there are a lot of things that might not land well with you, vice versa. But here's what I do know for sure. Every human being that I ever have engagement with or activity with, I take it personal that I manage my portion of it well, because I want that experience to be an experience that I'll be proud of, that I'll be okay with, that I can live with and lay down it. And if there's things that I can do that doesn't change the core of who I am to make sure that's a phenomenal experience for them. I'm okay with that. And everybody walks in the room, in every room with carry on luggage. Every single human being walks in the room with carry on luggage. If you go to Columbia airport right now, everybody wants to. If you take away that suitcase at TSA or you take it right at the gate, say, oh, by the way, mister, miss, Mister Jinkx, we're gonna have to check your carry on. Everybody freaks out because their whole life is in there. So when people show up in our rooms, I want you to be mindful that people have carry on luggage. And depending on what I say or don't say will trigger them at that gate. I still want them to get on the flight. I still want them to get to their destination. I still want them to have a good experience. It's how I deliver that, how they're going to fill in the aircraft. [00:58:51] Patrick: Wow. Any closing thoughts? [00:58:54] Ron: Yeah, it's always a pleasure. You know, I got. It's always phenomenal because you make me think, I never know what you're gonna come up with. And that's a growth for me. It's like, how do you handle this in real time? And I appreciate that because it allows me to grow. [00:59:08] Patrick: So that's how Ron grows, folks. He comes on the leaders of the leadership window podcast. Dude, this is a really good. You got me. You got my brain spinning here. Post show. This will be running in my head for a while. [00:59:24] Ron: We're going to charge you $129 to listen to this one. Because, pastor, some really great questions. [00:59:29] Patrick: I want to sincerely thank you with everybody listening how important this is to me, how important your gifts are to me, and your willingness to always share them. You've never said no to me, and I really do appreciate that. It does mean a lot to me. I am. I'm. I guess I'm to a point, Ron, where I realize I'm hard headed about things, but it. But at least I'm at that point, like, I'm going, okay, I'm hard headed about some things. So, so you make me think about some things, and there's things. There's things you and I have talked about that aren't gonna come on this podcast. We felt a really deep and, and, you know, we've got more to share on that. But that is. You're so right. That is so meaningful. You. You gotta have somebody that you can do that with, and it's. It's invaluable. It's a treasure to have that, to know that that. That safety's there and. And that the support is there without judgment. [01:00:27] Ron: I mean, for everyone. People ask, how do I do it? I say, because at the end of the day, my judgment gets in the way of my assistance. I said, I just. I say, and I'm not telling you it's easy, but if I'm gonna judge you, that's going to destroy whatever we work so hard. I'm just. I'm okay with not judging. Like, hey, man, thanks. I don't spend any time, people, how do you do it so quick? I said, I don't even think about it. It just naturally happens. I don't judge. And we've had some really deep conversations. Haven't lost any credibility. Your credit score hasn't dropped. Equity still there. The friendship is still. The relationship is still there. That's important for every human being, because nobody wants to show you some vulnerable piece of them. Then all of a sudden, you see them different. [01:01:04] Patrick: Yeah. Changes everything. Changes the game. And then you took a risk that. That burned you. [01:01:09] Ron: Yes. [01:01:09] Patrick: And then you won't do it again. [01:01:10] Ron: You won't do it again. You. At least with that person. [01:01:13] Patrick: Yeah. [01:01:13] Ron: And it'll take you a while to do it with someone else. [01:01:15] Patrick: Yeah, that's right. Boy, this is so good, Ron. Thank you. [01:01:19] Ron: Thank you so. I really do appreciate it, man. [01:01:21] Patrick: This is why. This is why we do it. It's why we bring him on every quarter. I'll take some time. I'll come up with five new challenges. I'll have you back. We'll do it at lunch next time again. Maybe go get some mexican food or something like that. The website? [01:01:36] Ron: Yes. [01:01:36] Patrick: Your website again? [01:01:38] Ron: Yeah. Www. Gcs dot consulting. Consultingcs dot consulting. [01:01:46] Patrick: And we'll have it on the episode page as well. Go back and listen to Ron's previous episodes with us, too. If you're hearing Ron for the first time and going, oh, my gosh, this is such a good, you know, podcast episode. There's several more. Just go back. Go to the podcast page. Go back and listen to them. They're all this rich. So thank you, folks. We'll see you here soon. Lead on.