Episode 120 - Leadership and a Ball Game with Charles Weathers

[00:00:06] Patrick: And welcome, everyone, to the Leadership Window podcast. I am Patrick Jinks. I want to thank Selena Frizzell for always introducing me every week. Her voice is just amazing, isn't it? And I wanted to bring her up because it's been a while since I recognized her. Selena Frazelle is an amazing voiceover artist. She can do sales ads. She can do professional video voiceover. She can do the calm stuff, the exciting stuff. She's just so authentic. And she also happens to be my cousin. But her voice is great. If you ever need any good voiceover work, look up Selena, the voice that is her voice work business. And she really is amazing. I just wanted a quick shout out to Selena. We're at Segra park in downtown Columbia, South Carolina right now. And when I say we, I mean Charles Weathers and myself. And as soon as I said Charles Weathers, I know a whole bunch of our listeners said, oh, I know exactly who that is. You hear that crowd? We just, we just threw a runner out at second base trying to, trying to steal. Charles has been making an impact in not mostly the nonprofit sector for most of his career, but as his business has evolved and developed, he's moved into other sectors. And last year, we wanted to do this, and we got preempted by a couple of scheduling issues and we just never were able to pull it off. And the reason I wanted to do this last year was because last year was the 20th anniversary of the Weathers group. And I just wanted to celebrate that with Charles. I just, it's something I want our listeners, I want the sector to understand what an impact the Weathers group has made and it continues to make. And I just wanted the opportunity to celebrate that with him because in my view, and I've told him this and I've told, I've told you this on the show before, he set a standard a long time ago for consultants and coaches, certainly in South Carolina, but that's expanded well beyond our home state here and set a standard for me. I moved here, launched this coaching business full time about eight years ago. And I just know that the standard of the day was the weathers group and the impact they continue to have. We've crossed paths indirectly because we've worked now with some of the same clients. And we hear good things about, I hope we hear good things about each other. I know I hear good things about Charles, but I just wanted to celebrate that. And so while we're doing this at the ballgame, the other thing is, if you've listened to me much, you know that I love sports analogies. And I also happen to be a fan of baseball, particularly my beloved St. Louis Cardinals. We couldn't get to St. Louis to do this, so we're doing it at Segra park from Columbia, and our home team is the Columbia Fireflies, and it's a single a affiliate of the Kansas City Royals. And tonight we're playing the Fayetteville Woodpeckers, who I think, I forget who they, I forget who their affiliate is. I used to know, we'll have to get on that in a second, or I might remember it. But we're here at the ballgame because we thought let's have, let's have a ballgame and a leadership conversation, unless maybe, I don't know, we'll pick up some leadership tenets and lessons and conversations along the way. And while we're doing it and waiting for the good baseball. And I also, I fantasize about being a play by play baseball announcer, so I'm going to do that every once in a while here. So that's the show. Get ready, buckle up. I don't know. We'll be around an hour or something. We'll probably pause here and there to take little breaks. But I want to say, Charles, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for making this work. And we had to work on it a couple times. We finally made it here. It's a beautiful evening and I couldn't do this with a better guy. Thanks for, thanks for coming and supporting the show and sharing more, dropping more good wisdom on us. [00:04:35] Charles: Patrick, thank you so much. Absolutely. First of all, thank you for that kind introduction. I appreciate your words of kindness and encouragement. The feeling is mutual. Most definitely. Thank you for the work that you're doing in the sector. For the last eight years here in South Carolina, if we set the standard, you have raised the standard and helped to increase that standard, and that's a good thing. I'm excited about the world of consulting in South Carolina, all the great work being done for nonprofits, and I'm just thankful for my name to be mentioned with names like yours and others and the impact that the sector is having on this state. Our work contributes to the work they do which makes the world a better place. And that what makes me see good sleep good at night. [00:05:14] Patrick: Yeah. You and I, we'll plug another organization right now. And that's together. Sc, I think that's where you and I probably got to know each other. And our paths crossed initially because that's our South Carolina statewide nonprofit association, and I consider it to be one of the very best in the country with over 800 members and just so much they're doing in the world of advocacy and learning with each other. One of the things that Charles does, by the way, is, Charles, for how many years now have done the Carolina leadership seminars with nonprofits since inception? [00:05:47] Charles: Since the inception. That's been eight years now, I think. Seven or eight years, yeah. Seven or eight years, yeah. [00:05:53] Patrick: And that's partially funded, I think, by the Sisters of Charity foundation of South Carolina. [00:05:57] Charles: That is correct. [00:05:57] Patrick: And sponsored by togethersc. And that's where I guess it's all CEO's, right? New, is it new CEO's, new and. [00:06:04] Charles: Emerging CEO's usually folks within the last five years as a CEO of a nonprofit organization. And it's exciting getting those folks in the room and spending time together talking about things that people normally do not talk about when you're appointed as a CEO. [00:06:18] Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's good. And I've heard nothing but good things about it, which is why we keep doing it year after year after year. But it's always been Charles Weathers there because, again, you've got a standard, you've got the experience to help these CEO's. The thing about you, Charles, and I think all great sort of trainers and consultants, you have that perfect combination of inspiration and information. So, you know, there's, we've heard inspiring consultants. Right, right. They're dynamic and they're great speakers and, but, you know, the substance might not always be great. And we've also heard people with substance and they're just hard to listen to because maybe they have that sort of a dry approach. You've got it all. And I just think that's just been of great value. I know it's been a great value to the CEO's in the sector, so. [00:07:06] Charles: Well, thank you for that. Let me say this, Patrick, to that .1 of the things that we have learned over the years is that this work requires both the head and the heart. The head and the heart. And so there's competency and there's compassion. Right. There's intelligence and there's intuition, and we bring those both to the table. And I think that you know, that's such a compliment from you, because the harmony that we want to bring to the table is that I want to both see people and feel people, so to speak, in terms of where their heart is, because that's what people need. They want our leadership and our engagement. [00:07:35] Patrick: See what I'm talking about, listeners? See exactly what I'm talking about there. That's it. No, thanks, Charles. I want to know a couple of things, and we'll get it. I want to make a couple of play calls here in a minute just for fun. Cool. But 21 years now. [00:07:50] Charles: 21 years. [00:07:50] Patrick: We were going to celebrate 20, or I was going to celebrate 20 with you. I did come to your event. It was amazing. You had a lot of support there. And people just. I mean, every. I don't know if there's a, certainly a nonprofit in South Carolina that doesn't know who you are, but 21 years, congratulations, first of all. [00:08:06] Charles: Thank you. Thank you. [00:08:07] Patrick: That's an amazing marker. [00:08:08] Charles: Thank you. I appreciate that. [00:08:11] Patrick: You know, ours is, ours is 15 years, but only eight full time. Like, what I would consider to be, we've been doing this in the full time world for eight. So less than half the time you've been doing this. And just one of the reasons we learn a lot from you. Here's what I'd like to know from you. A couple things I'm curious about. [00:08:27] Charles: Okay. [00:08:28] Patrick: In 20 years, when you think about starting it, and by the way, if I, if I remember this right, the year is marked by the age of your daughter, isn't it? Am I remembering that right? Was it something like that? [00:08:39] Charles: Yeah. My daughter is 22 right now. We're 21. So she was a year old sitting on my lap at the kitchen table when we started it. [00:08:47] Patrick: That's right. I remember that story. That was great. Here's the first thing I'd like to know from you. In 20 years of doing this work, what's the most different thing, maybe even the most surprising thing, 20 years later, that has changed in 20 years for you in the work, whether it's what you've noticed about the clients or what you've learned about yourself, what's the biggest change in 20 years? [00:09:11] Charles: Oh, my goodness. There's so many changes there. I'm going to start with this one. The first thing that comes to mind off the top of my head, Patrick, is there are fewer gatekeepers today than there were 20 years ago. And when I talk about gatekeepers, I'm talking about both at a community level, an organizational level and a board level. In other words. 20 years ago, 21 years ago, what I found was there was one person, in many cases, that you had to go through to get to the board, to get to the organization, to work within community. One person was endowed by design or default with that power to go through them. There's been this democratization of leadership and a power now where there's not. There are gatekeepers, but not as many anymore. So now you go into a community. It's not just one person you have to connect with. You got to work with the entire community. You got to engage entire community. You go into an organization. There was a time you could talk to the CEO and go in and do training for their staff. And now, no, no, you better talk to the entire staff, the entire management team, not just one person, before you go into an consulting engagement, because somebody else knows something that needs to be seen and heard. [00:10:16] Patrick: Wow. As you're saying it, I'm thinking about my experience and I'm. I'm going, yeah, I think I see what you're talking about there. And it's. Part of it is the gatekeepers, you know, for business. Right. [00:10:27] Charles: For business. Right. [00:10:28] Patrick: Part of it is also the gatekeepers for working in a community. [00:10:31] Charles: That's right, that's right. [00:10:33] Patrick: Yeah. [00:10:34] Charles: So there's no more. No longer just call mister or misses so and so. And they're the one person. And if you get on their good side, you can work with everybody in the community. The community is saying, no respect. All of us. Talk to all of us. One person. One person alone is not going to just speak for us. [00:10:48] Patrick: So the relationships take longer. They got to go deeper and wider at the same time. [00:10:55] Charles: Absolutely. [00:10:55] Patrick: You can't just know one guy and get in and be the. [00:10:59] Charles: And by the way, one thing I learned in 20 years, sometimes that one person you knew that you thought was the person to get into the community, the community was not a fan of that person. [00:11:08] Patrick: Uh huh. Yeah. And they. And they talk. [00:11:12] Charles: Yes, they do. [00:11:13] Patrick: So they're gonna. They're gonna find your reason to engage you or not. Anything else you think of this changed in 20 years dramatically in your work? [00:11:21] Charles: Absolutely. The intergenerational or multigenerational presence within the boardroom and the workplace. You know, we have five generations in the boardroom and workplace right now. Traditionalists, baby boomers, Gen X, millennials and Gen Z. Yup. And what we're seeing now is we're seeing this collaboration and cooperation, coordination amongst these generations. Now, I would caution the listeners, don't get caught up in generational stereotypes and think just because I'm a certain age, I might fit that stereotype. However, recognize there are some generational differences that we recognize, and I'm seeing in my work some healthy dynamics amongst that. I'm seeing some good relationship, everybody learning from each other. [00:12:03] Patrick: Absolutely. I am. I'll say this on the air, by the time actually this airs, I will have probably gone through it. I registered for a webinar with the center for Creative Leadership, so I'll give them a plug too. One of the pioneers and mecca of leadership development. But I came across an email thread, and the webinar was generational differences, myth or reality? And as I read the teaser for the content, it implied that what I can expect on the webinar is that they're going to make the case that it's more mythical reality. That was kind of the teaser was like, hey, you know, you might be overthinking this generational difference thing. So I'm not, I'm not. I'm engaged. I'm booked at the time that they're having the webinar. [00:12:56] Charles: Right. [00:12:56] Patrick: But I registered for it, so I can go back and play it later. [00:12:59] Charles: Good. [00:12:59] Patrick: And I'm really anxious to hear it. But I'll just ask you straight up, the gener, you know, we talk about, well, you know, Gen Z, they this, and Jim, the millennials, they don't like this. And that's. Is that more? Is that more? Do we make more of that stuff up than is reality? In your experience, what do you think? [00:13:14] Charles: In my experience, we make a lot of it up, and there's some reality in some cases. Now, as an example, people say to me, millennials are entitled. Well, guess what? I know some entitled baby boomers. People say Gen Z is lazy. Well, I know some lazy Gen xers. Right? So you can't just tie it to. [00:13:31] Patrick: Some hard working millennials and some hardworking millennials. [00:13:34] Charles: Exactly. So you gotta get to know the individual and get to know the person. I will tell you this, though. I am finding the younger generation is challenging the status like every younger generation does. That's what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to come into the workplace and say, why are we doing it this way? Can we do it better? We all did that when we were coming into the workplace. [00:13:51] Patrick: Yeah. And you know what? We should be challenging them, too. [00:13:54] Charles: Absolutely. [00:13:55] Patrick: Like, you know, our parents said, well, back in my day. Right, exactly. We roll our eyes, and then later on in life we go, they were right about a few things. They did know a couple things. So yeah. I think we should challenge each other. [00:14:07] Charles: Let me tell you one place where I see a lot of challenge. Something simple that all listeners can identify with. Meetings. Meetings are being challenged, Patrick. [00:14:14] Patrick: I'm challenged. [00:14:15] Charles: Why are we having this meeting? [00:14:16] Patrick: That's right. [00:14:17] Charles: Do we need to be in the same place at the same time? Is it worth the drive? Do we have to convene now? Meetings serve tremendous value and purpose when they're valuable and purposeful. [00:14:29] Patrick: Meetings are good when they're good. Yes, that's right. Yeah. You and I might have talked about this before because I heard something. I got to look it up and get the call quote. Right. But it was something like, the best meeting is the one not held. Something like that. [00:14:41] Charles: Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:14:45] Patrick: What are you finding has changed in the sector? Like, let me set this up a little bit. [00:14:51] Charles: Sure. [00:14:52] Patrick: One of my laments is how slow the nonprofit sector moves. [00:14:57] Charles: Yes, yes. [00:14:58] Patrick: We're good people. [00:14:59] Charles: We're good people. [00:15:00] Patrick: Well meaning people. Yes, but we are. We are. We have constraints that we put on ourselves. Like, we gotta have full consensus. Sure. Right. Before we can move forward with. [00:15:09] Charles: That's right. That's right. [00:15:11] Patrick: And so. And you know me. I don't like slow. [00:15:14] Charles: You don't like slow? [00:15:15] Patrick: I mean, you don't. That's why I no longer work for a board and I work for myself now. I can move as fast as I want, and if I get burned, it's me that burned myself. [00:15:24] Charles: Right. [00:15:25] Patrick: But I do think the sector moves, unfortunately, slow it does. In making actual social impact and change. Okay. But I also think that in 20 years, there is. I think there's an increasing sophistication and appreciation for what that change actually is and what it's going to take to do it. I think more nonprofits are realizing this can't just be about a niche need that we're serving. Charitably. [00:15:57] Charles: Correct this. [00:15:58] Patrick: More and more nonprofits are talking about, we gotta get to the system. We gotta get to the root. [00:16:02] Charles: Yes. [00:16:03] Patrick: We got a long way to go on it. But that's what I'm seeing is I still struggle with the slow. [00:16:11] Charles: Right. [00:16:11] Patrick: But I am seeing some movement in thought processes. [00:16:14] Charles: I'm seeing that as well. And I'm also seeing a reduction in the silos. I'm seeing nonprofits acknowledge, Patrick, that they can't do it by themselves. And I'm not just talking about partnering or collaborating or forming alliances with other nonprofits. I'm seeing these cross sector relationships. Nonprofit, government, for profit, small business, everybody coming together and recognizing, hey, what part do you play in this larger contextual issue? And then how can we all work better together? [00:16:43] Patrick: Yeah, that's good. That's good. Let me pause here and. And look at a little baseball. How are we doing? It's. It's nothing. Nothing. We're in the bottom of the third inning. I haven't really been paying attention to the game a whole lot, actually, but Brennan McNair is at the plate. He's a left fielder. He's got a. What am I looking at? I can't see, Charles. I can't. My eyesight. Like, what are we looking for? It's one to know. All right. It's one to know. It's one to know. All right, here we go. The one o pitch to McNair. Columbia Fireflies. It is zero. Zero. We're in the bottom of the third. There's nobody on swing. And he was able to check his swing. No. The first base umpire says he went around. So now one ball and two strikes. And that went from 88 miles an hour to 81 miles an hour. So this picture's got some range. Here's the one two pitch to McNair. And he did check the swing that time. Down and away, and it's two and two. We've gotten some. We've gotten some hits and some base action. We just haven't been able to bring anybody in swinging. A miss. He went down on strikes. I like the pitch clock. You know, they've done. They moved. It's. It's in the. Yeah. You familiar with the pitch clock? The new pitch clock rule? It has really sped the game up is, you know, you used to watch baseball 45 seconds. Well, but it's. He's between batters. So I think he's given 30 seconds between batters, but between pitches, I think it might be either 15 or 20. But we'll see. That pitch clock out there will tell you. And if he doesn't start his wind up before the pitch clock goes. All right, so now he's caught the. But he's at 15 more seconds, so he has to start his wind up. He didn't have to have it pitched, but to start his wind up within that, because you used to see, you know, these guys. There's a base hit. No, no, he's charging. Did he get it? Did he catch that? No, he did not. He did not catch it. Oh, he trapped it as a good hit. No. So this is really interesting, and here's it. Let's talk leadership here for a second. [00:18:56] Charles: Okay. [00:18:57] Patrick: So the pitcher has 15 seconds from the time of his last pitch to the time he starts his windup on the next pitch. And it's new. I think it's two years old now. They started doing this. Cause you used to see the pitcher, he'd be out there. He'd wait. He'd stand there. He'd throw over to first base eight times before he'd pitch. Or you'd have the batter step out of the box and adjust his batting gloves, and it'd take forever. And a game would just take forever. You're like, okay, you know, it's strike one for the last three minutes. [00:19:24] Charles: Right? Right. [00:19:25] Patrick: So the pitch clock has sped the game up, but it has also, so it's made players completely change their mindset of how they approach a game that pitcher doesn't have time to and stew on what his next pitch is. He's got and I think. So here's a. Here's a leadership thing for you. When we talk about speed, I was. We're talking soon with a woman who does full integration coaching. What is it called? New leader. New leader integration. [00:19:55] Charles: Okay. [00:19:56] Patrick: For companies. [00:19:57] Charles: Okay. [00:19:57] Patrick: And her deal is we take. How long does it take for a new leader to get fully integrated into their role? The answer is too long. [00:20:07] Charles: Too long. [00:20:07] Patrick: Like, surveys will say we've had our job now for nine months, and we're just getting a feel for it. Right. And, oh, by the way, only 30% of those surveys say that their company gives them any support in doing that. We just throw them in there, and we do that in the nonprofit sector really bad. [00:20:28] Charles: Sure, we do. [00:20:29] Patrick: So today, though, we don't have that kind of time. No, you don't. You don't have all that time to sit on the mount. We got a pitch. Like, we. We've got to get out there and do things. You put a new leader in their role today. [00:20:40] Charles: Mm hmm. [00:20:41] Patrick: You don't have nine months to figure this out. [00:20:43] Charles: No, you do not. No, you do not. You know what that tells me, Patrick? That tells me that you can't wait until the leader gets in the role to develop the leader. [00:20:52] Patrick: Wait a minute. Are you telling me then that if I'm a good fundraiser, I'm not just ready to be a CEO now because I was a good fundraiser? You're telling me. [00:21:01] Charles: Kind of, sort of, yeah. How many times have we seen somebody who's a great program manager and that potion gets promoted to be the executive director or overseeing organization, and they fail not because they're not smart or intelligent, but because we didn't give them the time, resources, tools, and preparation to become the executive director. [00:21:18] Patrick: That's right. [00:21:18] Charles: It's two different skill sets, competencies, and capacities. [00:21:21] Patrick: Right, right. Yeah. We learn. We learn the work. We learn the functions, you know, but leadership is a job in and of itself. But I don't know. Something I thought about pitch club. We just. We got to move quicker. We have to. We've got to get quicker at what we're doing. The world is. The rate of change, for one thing, is accelerating by the. By the moment. [00:21:41] Charles: By the moment. [00:21:41] Patrick: It just keeps rising by the moment. And we don't. We don't have time. We're talking. We were talking to Charles Adler, who's the. The co founder and former CEO of Kickstarter. [00:21:51] Charles: Okay. Okay. [00:21:52] Patrick: And I remember among many of the interesting things that Charles Adler told us, this was at our BRi conference. He said he basically gives himself 30 days on any major project or new entrepreneurial initiative. [00:22:05] Charles: Okay? [00:22:06] Patrick: 30 days. If I don't pull it off in 30 days, I drop it. It wasn't worth it. [00:22:11] Charles: I love it. [00:22:12] Patrick: Wasn't invested. I didn't care, or it can't be done. I'm on to the next thing. Three days. I ain't got time for this. I don't have three years to develop a thing. [00:22:23] Charles: Can't take it nowadays. Three years. No way. [00:22:25] Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Designated hitter. Darling. Figueroa is the batter with a runner at second. So runner in scoring position, and he's got an opportunity to drive in a run here. Once again. We got a runner on. We got to get him in that pitch down to 79. So he's throwing some pretty decent fastballs and sinkers, but he's also throwing that slow change up. All right? It's 2222 balls, two strikes, two outs to Figueroa, the left handed designated hitter. He's designated hitter because he battened 279 on the year, by the way. And here's the two two pitch. And this is driven foul over on the first base side. And we'll do it again. Two and two. You got to provide some color commentary, Charles. What are you. What are you seeing? Like, what's. I don't know what I'm doing. [00:23:12] Charles: You don't know what you're doing? [00:23:13] Patrick: I have no idea what. [00:23:13] Charles: You living out the dream here, man. I get it. [00:23:15] Patrick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's fun. You know, it's easier to do, though, if you know who the players are. Like, if I was calling a Cardinals game, I think I could do that. [00:23:22] Charles: Oh, you'd have a blast doing that. [00:23:24] Patrick: But you. But I don't know these players. We don't. We don't come to about a couple of games a year. So I'm going off the roster sheet here. Here's the two two again. This one swung on, this one just over the first baseline. Fair. Pitcher runs to the base, first baseman tosses it, and the pitcher wins the race to the bag. That's three outs. We wasted another run in scoring position. Tell you what we're going to do. We're going to take a quick break while this PA announcer plays a bunch of silly games, and then we will be right back. All right, folks, we took a little break. We're in the top of the fourth now in Fayetteville's back up to bat, and Mister weathers here just made a very astute observation about one of the elements of this game as the Fayetteville player grounds out to the second baseman. And that's one away. Tell us about it, Charles. What are you thinking about the batters box. [00:24:22] Charles: We're sitting here behind home plate, and I'm looking at this batters box and thinking about what is the leadership equivalent of the batters box? You got to get in the game. You got to get in position. And I played a little bit of baseball early in my life, and I know that box can be scary and intimidating because that ball is coming at you and coming hard at you, and you got to navigate what's coming at you and do your job. And it's not for the faint of heart, and it tells me. Go ahead. [00:24:47] Patrick: Well, so for the. Just to explain the batters box to anyone who's not, doesn't know what's a batter's box? It's the chocolate line, the literal box drawn on the ground by home plate, that the batter is required to stand in while he's at the plate batting. [00:25:01] Charles: Right. [00:25:01] Patrick: So. And it's close. I mean, it's right at the plate. So it makes one little mistake, brushes you back. You can, you know. Oh, you can lose an eyelash. [00:25:08] Charles: You seen people get hit. Elbows, ankles, heads. Heads. Heads. [00:25:12] Patrick: Yeah. [00:25:13] Charles: When I played, we didn't have the fancy helmets that protected the side of your face, you know? [00:25:17] Patrick: So, Charles, the first thing he said kind of during the break, when you were bringing this up about the batter's box is if you're gonna. If you're gonna play the game, if you're gonna get a hit, if you're gonna do something significant, you have to get in the box to do it. It takes a risk. [00:25:31] Charles: Yep. [00:25:32] Patrick: And you gotta be in your place, and you gotta be ready. [00:25:34] Charles: That's exactly. [00:25:34] Patrick: You gotta be ready when that windup and that pitch comes. [00:25:37] Charles: Yep. [00:25:40] Patrick: I like it. [00:25:41] Charles: It takes courage. And you know what I also noticed, Patrick? Everybody stands in the box differently. What's your stance? You can't copy mine. [00:25:48] Patrick: That's true. That's true. Some people stand in the. In the back of it, the front of it, the left and right. It's pretty wide. I don't know the dimensions of the bot. What does that look like? Three by three or three? Two by three by four. [00:25:59] Charles: Three by four. I'm gonna go three by four. [00:26:00] Patrick: It might look three by four. There's a foul ball down the left sideline, out of play. There are two outs, and now we got two strikes. Fayetteville's down to their last strike here in the top of the fourth inning. Let's go. Get out. That was a 92 miles an hour pitch, so that's the fastest one I've seen so far from the Firefly pitcher. That looked like a strike. As the crowd goes, ooh, bad call, mister umpire. Two and two is the count. No, sorry. One and two. One ball, two strikes, two outs. Pitcher gets a sign, he throws in, and that is a fly ball into left field. And it looks like it is handled. So we're out of the inning. We'll go to the bottom of the fourth on this one. Yeah. So, Charles, one of the things about that, they've. We talked about the pitch clock a while ago, and you have to. You have to get ready to pitch in the batter's block. There's a batter's clock, too. So the batter, if the pitcher's got 15 seconds to pitch, the batter can't just step outside the box and delay, right? Because now he's keeping the pitcher from being able to make that play. So I remember a time. I remember I was working. I got a job as a classified advertising representative, taking incoming phone calls from people wanting to put classified ads in the newspaper. Okay? And they teach you, you spend a weekend training in another room at the terminal, because it's a special computer with all the user keys. You got to learn how to do the stuff, learn how to take a call, learn the policies, learn the sales, the rates, the whole thing. Learn how to do it. And you're given a little less than a week. Then they put you out on the floor next to a call agent, a seasoned call agent who's taking calls. Now, when you press at that time, you would press a button on your phone that says available. And when you're available, you got your earpiece. You don't actually then answer the phone. It just. It'll beep in your ear. That means someone's there. All right? So if you're unavailable, look out. If it beeps, you're on the line with somebody. [00:28:08] Charles: Okay? [00:28:08] Patrick: So I'm sitting there with my trainer, Renee, who's a who. She's just blowing through them like crazy, and she goes, go ahead, take a call. And I'm like, no, I'm good. I got the whole day to watch you. That they gave. They told me I had the whole day to just watch you. She, yeah, yeah, but might as well just go ahead and do it. Just go unavailable. Take a call. And I'm like, no, no, no. I'm really. I'm okay. I'll just keep watching. So she's sitting there just telling me, ah, you're. You're a. You're a punk, right? You're a sissy. Come on, you can do this. Just take a. Go ahead, press the button. Take a call. I'm like, I'm not ready. So I look, she goes, okay. And she reaches over and pushes my available button for me. And immediately I heard a beep in my ear. Immediately. And I'm on the line with a customer, okay? And I looked at her, and I stared at her, and she goes, you better do something. I took the call. I sold an ad, I upgraded the sale, and I did everything right. I did everything perfectly, and I hung up, and she goes, see? And I said, yeah, and if you ever do that again. But here's the thing, just coming back to baseball. You got it. You can't stay out of the box. You have to step into it. There's a time when you just. It's your turn. You're up, dude. You can't sit in the dugout. Go, no, coach, I'm not ready. No, I'm not ready. [00:29:29] Charles: No. [00:29:29] Patrick: So what I'm finding now is someone the other day said something about, oh, I wish I could remember the phrase, but that a leader. That a leader puts people in the position where they. Where they can do it or something like that. And I asked the question, is it ever a leader's job to put someone in a position that they are not sure they can do? [00:29:55] Charles: I like that question, Patrick. I like that question. And I think the answer is yes. [00:30:01] Patrick: Is that not how we grow? [00:30:02] Charles: I think the answer is yes. [00:30:03] Patrick: I mean, if I'm already ready, I know how to do it. Am I growing? I'm just doing it. [00:30:06] Charles: No. Where's the stretch at? Where's the stretch goal? Back in the day, we call that a stretch goal. [00:30:10] Patrick: Stretch goal. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Fireflies are back up to bat now. We already got one out. It's a low scoring game. Here's a. Here's a leadership thing. [00:30:23] Charles: What's that? [00:30:25] Patrick: All the work we do is not super exciting and sexy. I like baseball games where there's home runs and there's, you know, you're knocking in two runs from second and third base, and, you know, it's. It's nine to seven and it's close. We're in the fourth inning, and there's. [00:30:41] Charles: No score, but you still have to play the game. [00:30:43] Patrick: But you still have to play the game. And there's another game happening behind this one. And we call this a pitcher's duel because to them, this is a great game. [00:30:52] Charles: Right. [00:30:52] Patrick: This is exactly what you want. [00:30:54] Charles: Right. [00:30:55] Patrick: But we go through those times when it's not all scoring. [00:31:00] Charles: I love it. I love it. You have to play it and finish it. [00:31:02] Patrick: You got to play it. You got to finish it. You got to go through the lulls. [00:31:05] Charles: Can I add something else to that? [00:31:06] Patrick: Yeah, please. [00:31:07] Charles: As we watch this game and let's look at the field, talk about leadership, and we see the players out here. You have the sheet next to you over there with all their names and numbers and statistics and so on, right? [00:31:17] Patrick: Yep. [00:31:17] Charles: Guess what? They're not out here. If it weren't or wasn't for the people that we don't see, who are the people behind the dugout? Who are the people under the stadium? Who are the people back there that are making sure the people out here have a field to play on? See, part of leadership is recognizing that I don't get to stand where I stand if other people aren't doing what they're doing. And they're recognized as well. [00:31:41] Patrick: The base coaches are often, at least in the major leagues, they're. They're past their prime. They're not players anymore. [00:31:49] Charles: Right. Good point. [00:31:51] Patrick: But their role, they're standing at. He's standing out there. [00:31:53] Charles: He's standing out there. That's right. [00:31:55] Patrick: But he's got a job to do that helps these people be successful. That's right. Yeah. We don't see all that. He's giving signals right now. He's telling them, do it. I guess he's telling the guy at first whether to steal or not. [00:32:08] Charles: And the thing I love about. I saw one of the players high five. You know, they call it the bat boy or whatever. Like, they high five the kid that's taking the ball out or the other people who are going out there in between the innings and sweeping the dirt and so on. [00:32:21] Patrick: Yeah. [00:32:21] Charles: The players acknowledging them. [00:32:22] Patrick: Yeah. Speaking of that, here's a question. You talk about high fives making. Makes me think about teams. [00:32:28] Charles: Yeah. [00:32:29] Patrick: At this level, this is single a ball. I mean, my, most of these guys are not going to make the big leagues. [00:32:38] Charles: Okay. [00:32:38] Patrick: Okay. Many of these guys won't even make double or Triple A. Some of them don't want to. Some of them are here for part time. They're just here for part time work. I like to play baseball. [00:32:46] Charles: Okay. [00:32:46] Patrick: Some of them are just getting in and trying to climb their way up the deals, right. But because they, the players that are out here to develop themselves and get seen by scouts to go to the next level, they're playing an individual sport right now. They're here to perform. They got stats they gotta, they gotta perform on. [00:33:09] Charles: Right. [00:33:09] Patrick: I wonder how much at the minor league level do they actually think as a team versus. We're all here because we want to get there individually. Do you know what I'm saying? [00:33:21] Charles: I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah. [00:33:23] Patrick: I just wonder how much of that that goes on in the major leagues. They're already there right now. They're always, you always got to, you know, what have you done for me lately? But there's more cohesiveness as a team, it seems like. [00:33:36] Charles: Right, right. [00:33:37] Patrick: These guys just. You don't. I don't know. I don't sense as much of a team vibe. I sense more of a, we're all wearing the same uniform, but we're all looking out for ourselves, too, in a way. I mean, we're. They're working on their careers. [00:33:48] Charles: Right, right. [00:33:55] Patrick: Well, good play by the first baseman, but that's going to be a e one on the pitcher as the pitcher ran over to cover the plate and miss the transfer. So now we got runners at first and third with only one out. Might have something going here. [00:34:14] Charles: Patrick, that last point you made, I like that. What do you think about the mindset? Like, what does it take to cultivate that mindset of team and collaboration? Where is it possible where I can get mine and still create the space where we're together? Can the two coexist? [00:34:33] Patrick: I think they have to. It's, it. This is a team sport. So I would say maybe as a coach, my mantra might be. We will all be betters, better as individuals if the team is better. [00:34:48] Charles: Yeah. Yeah. [00:34:56] Patrick: Well, we wasted another one, Charles, they got it. They got a double play to get out of that one, so we're not scoring there either. [00:35:04] Charles: Thank you, Brian. How are you feeling? [00:35:06] Patrick: Everybody all right? So we're between innings, and we got this guy on the PA announcer. He's going to go nuts for a while. So we'll take another quick break, might do another inning or two, and then we'll. [00:35:15] Charles: Sounds good. [00:35:16] Patrick: We'll start wrapping this up. [00:35:17] Charles: All right. [00:35:17] Patrick: We'll be right back. All right, we're back. We're in the top of the fifth. Fayetteville's going to bat. And we don't care about them. We only care about Columbia. So we're going to talk while Fayetteville goes to bat. Charles, what are you working on these days? Back when you started and in the early years and into the mid, it was pretty, you were doing consulting for nonprofits. A lot of strategic planning. Correct? A lot of strategic planning. [00:35:51] Charles: A lot. [00:35:52] Patrick: Your world has completely changed today. And just you personally, you got the business you can talk about in terms. You've got team members now that are picking up some of that. But what are you working on these days? What's got you busy? [00:36:05] Charles: You know, it's interesting, Patrick, what's got me busy on a personal level is I'm spending a lot of time in the area of personal development. Coaching is an element of this right here, but it's helping people just kind of answer the big questions in their life. It's more than on the work side of things. It's about, you know, why am I here? What purpose am I serving? What meaning do I have? Where's my walk right now? I am finding a lot of people in the workplace that are finding this convergence of, quite frankly, spiritual, however they define spiritual and professional and relational and at the space where they're asking these questions. And I'm fortunate that people are finding space with me or asking me to be in space with them, to have those conversations and dialogue. And I just, that's just, it's fascinating and it's fulfilling and it's game changing. [00:36:54] Patrick: And yeah, yeah, it's humbling to have that trust when people trust you in that aspect. [00:37:01] Charles: Unbelievable. It's unbelievable when people sit down and have confidence and trust in you. Like you said, to have that conversation. And the other thing I'll say that's occupying my time right now is I'm still doing some facilitation, but it's not general facilitation. I am facilitating more of the difficult conversations. Now I'm spending time with groups, communities, organizations that are really wrestling with those topics that we don't want to talk about, things we don't want to deal with. And again, quite frankly, people are trusting me, and I'm thankful for that, to come in and share what I can to help them get through those dialogues and have those conversations. [00:37:37] Patrick: I want to, I want to cover the difficult conversations and some of the tenets of that in a little bit. But I want to come back to, first, the personal development. [00:37:45] Charles: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:47] Patrick: There's a, there's a mantra in coaching. I know you've heard it. Coach the person, not the problem. [00:37:51] Charles: That's right. That's right. [00:37:52] Patrick: So if we're coaching the problem, we're into technical solutions with them. [00:37:56] Charles: That's right. [00:37:56] Patrick: When you're coaching the person, it turns out that leaders are people. [00:38:00] Charles: Yes, sir. [00:38:00] Patrick: You know, it turns out that way. And so isn't that interesting? You know, people talk about work life balance, and I'm like, you mean work's not a part of your life? [00:38:08] Charles: Work's not a part of your life. [00:38:09] Patrick: Is that what you're saying? So what are you finding? Let me. I'll set this up a little bit. I have found it at times challenging to remind myself and my clients that I am a coach, not a counselor. [00:38:31] Charles: Yes. [00:38:32] Patrick: Right. I mean, yes. And the reason is because, you know, therapy requires a licensure that I don't have. Right. [00:38:38] Charles: Don't have and don't want. That's right. [00:38:40] Patrick: But when you're coaching leaders that are being challenged with things, it comes down to personal problems. A lot. It comes down to, man, I got a lot going on in my life right now. I'm going through a divorce. I'm, you know, I, you know, whatever it is, my boss is on to me. I'm struggling with this. [00:38:55] Charles: My. [00:38:55] Patrick: I've had health problems. I don't know what I want to do next in my life. I'm not fulfilled. I'm not. And it's not about I got to get the budget done this week. It's about I'm struggling in my life, and that's affecting my leadership. [00:39:08] Charles: Yes, yes, yes. Patrick, a couple of years ago, one of the best things I did as a professional, you know, we all have our levels of certification and so on, but I got a certification in spiritual direction. It's a two year process, and it was the most intensive two years of my life, Patrick. I've not been through anything as challenging and intense as that. And as a spiritual director, basically, to put it this way, you serve as a companion or a guide with people on their spiritual journey. I am not there to change anybody or fix anybody. I'm there to accompany people in their journey as they explore questions and challenges and so on and so forth. But here's the thing I want to say to you. Before I can help anybody else or talk to anybody else, I spent two years going deep into myself. I thought I was going through that certification to help somebody else. You know this as a coach, Patrick, you reckon that. Wait a minute. Everything I'm saying is, for me, first. [00:40:04] Patrick: It starts with me, am I doing this? [00:40:06] Charles: Am I doing this? [00:40:07] Patrick: They say if you want to learn, teach. [00:40:08] Charles: Exactly. Exactly. So what I'm finding, I did that because when I was coaching, I still am, but when I was coaching and helping leaders in C suite offices, I was finding this realm of, wait a minute. This is more than coaching. This is more than leadership development. There's another realm here that we're not touching on. There's something else going on that we're not touching on. And that's what led me in the spiritual direction. [00:40:31] Patrick: Coaching has its roots in psychology. [00:40:33] Charles: Yes, it does. [00:40:34] Patrick: And I mean, we're people and we're complex. [00:40:39] Charles: That's right. [00:40:40] Patrick: So let me come to the difficult conversations piece, because that has been one fascinating thing about your work. That's a unique space. Is facilitating those. Yes, one of the, you and I have talked about this, too. I deal with it in my coaching all the time. Leaders having difficult times with what we call the crucial conversation. But the difficult conversations you're talking about, what are some of those? What's the arena there? [00:41:09] Charles: I'll give you a couple of examples without disclosing, obviously confidentiality, who I'm talking about here, and I'll go back in time. So it's not even anything recent right now here's some examples of difficult conversations. You have a couple of a few organizations that are forming a collaborative, sitting in a room together to making some decisions, but there's not trust. They don't trust each other, but nobody's saying it because they don't know how to say it. And the lack of trust manifests in not fulfilling duties, not being held accountable, not doing what they say they're going to do. And so somebody has to kind of have that space. Where can we put it on the table, so to speak? That's an example of a difficult conversation because you know what? We don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. We don't want to make anybody mad. We don't want to be the bad person, so to speak. [00:41:55] Patrick: Right. [00:41:56] Charles: So that's one of the common difficult conversations. Another one that happens quite frequently is when we're in a situation where we did not do what we said we're going to do and we're part of a team. And again, going back to something like accountability, Patrick, how do I hold people accountable but still have empathy? Can those two coexist? Sure, they can. [00:42:15] Patrick: They have to. [00:42:16] Charles: They have to coexist. As a leader, you have to figure out, how do you make both those things happen? [00:42:19] Patrick: Yeah, that's good. That's good. Kim Scott in radical candor. [00:42:23] Charles: Yep. [00:42:24] Patrick: Calls that ruinous empathy. [00:42:26] Charles: Yes, yes. You know, great book. Great book. [00:42:28] Patrick: We think we're helping someone, but actually we're probably hurting them. [00:42:33] Charles: That's right. [00:42:33] Patrick: Listen to that crowd. We just, I was going to say we stole third, but actually we were given third on an error. Oh, he's feeling home. What's he doing? [00:42:42] Charles: What's he doing? What happened? [00:42:46] Patrick: All right. Well, this is one of those times where we weren't paying enough attention to know what's going on, but thought we had a run, and I guess we don't, but he's going to first. [00:42:58] Charles: I don't understand that play. [00:43:00] Patrick: All right, our, listen, get on with the leadership stuff, folks. We don't even know. We can't see what you're seeing. Oh, we don't know what we just saw either. But if I, if I, if I'm right. Guy ran to second. Catcher overthrew him. So he took third. He was safe. He was called safe by the third base umpire. Then we turn and he's trying to take home and they get him out and the umpire sends him back to first base. [00:43:28] Charles: That's what happened. [00:43:29] Patrick: That's what I seen that happen. [00:43:30] Charles: Don't know what I mean. [00:43:31] Patrick: I have no idea what that means. All I know is it's still zero, zero. Don't know we didn't get a run. [00:43:35] Charles: Patrick, let me back up a second, if I can, to those difficult conversations, because another thing, and I want your input here from your experience, a common thing that we have seen over the years and we still see is a new leader comes into an organization and wants to establish a new culture. [00:43:53] Patrick: Go ahead. [00:43:54] Charles: Yeah, we want to. Got a, you know, new sheriff in town, so to speak. Right. We're going to do things differently. And they hit some resistance, lack of buy in and so on and so forth. And really, it is challenging. What I'm finding is sometimes the difficult conversations, though they do exist, sometimes we, as leaders contribute to the difficult conversations. Cause we make things more difficult by not using good leadership principles on the front end. I hope that makes sense. [00:44:23] Patrick: Well, we're gonna come back to that when we're not. When we don't have the PA announcer yelling in the microphone. Okay, so let's take another quick break and come back to that. All right, back after the break. And we're headed to the top of the 6th now. And still no score as Fayetteville comes to the plate to bat. And before this inning ended, Charles, you were asking about. You were talking about leaders who come into an organization new and they want to change the culture. We're going to do things different around here. [00:45:05] Charles: Sure. [00:45:05] Patrick: And as a result of their sort of, I don't know, brazen or over aggressiveness in doing it, they create some of the need for the difficult conversations. [00:45:15] Charles: I've seen that. Yes, yes. [00:45:17] Patrick: Here's. This is interesting that you say that, because I've been. That I've been that leader. [00:45:22] Charles: Okay. [00:45:23] Patrick: Not to try to be toxic. [00:45:25] Charles: No, no. [00:45:26] Patrick: I've been that leader that comes into an organization literally charged with changing the culture. [00:45:31] Charles: Correct, correct. [00:45:32] Patrick: And to a team that wants the culture changed. Right. Maybe just whatever they didn't like the last CEO or whatever. [00:45:39] Charles: Sure. [00:45:40] Patrick: And that's a really difficult job because culture does not happen in the first. We just talked about the speed of getting fully integrated into a job. [00:45:48] Charles: Correct. [00:45:48] Patrick: You know, even if you're. Even if you're hitting on all cylinders in 90 days, he ain't changed the culture in 90 days. [00:45:54] Charles: No, you're not. It didn't get there in 90 days. [00:45:57] Patrick: Right. [00:45:57] Charles: You're not going to move it in 90 days. [00:45:58] Patrick: Right. What. What are some of the. So tie that back to the difficult conversations again that you're talking about, that the leader is part of the problem. In that context. [00:46:09] Charles: In that context, I would recommend to leaders, first of all, some organizations absolutely need the culture of change. We acknowledge that. But I'm going to ask leaders, what's your process for change? What's your process? What's your practice? What are you doing to make that happen? Are you coming in? Here's common, Patrick. It's the leaders change, not the organization's or the team's change. If it's viewed as your change and not our change, it ain't happening. [00:46:32] Patrick: That's right. [00:46:32] Charles: And that's going to lead to a lot of difficult conversations. So what are we doing to make sure we create a culture where it's not viewed just as my change. [00:46:42] Patrick: One of the. I know you're familiar with the. The model of the leadership challenge and the five practices of leaders, and one of them is about casting shared vision. [00:46:50] Charles: Yes. [00:46:51] Patrick: Not casting my vision. [00:46:53] Charles: Shared. [00:46:53] Patrick: Right. The skill set of a CEO. It's great to have an inspiring vision that you can talk about. [00:46:59] Charles: Right. [00:46:59] Patrick: But if it's not their vision, you're just gonna run roughshod over the whole thing, and you're gonna lose good people, and it's gonna implode on you. [00:47:08] Charles: That's exactly right. And by the way, are you even spending time with that? Shared vision, I believe, is communication and dialogue and conversations. Are you talking to people before you change anything? Are you getting their input? Are you getting their insights? And I'm not saying just to check a box and say you talked to somebody, really sit down. Because people see things you don't see, hear things you don't hear, know things you don't know. And I can promise you there's somebody on the frontline of the work who may not have the biggest business card, biggest desk, or biggest office, and they know what you need to know to enact this change. [00:47:39] Patrick: Wow. Yeah. Wow. That's fantastic. Yeah. And that just requires. Well, that requires emotional intelligence. [00:47:47] Charles: Yes. [00:47:48] Patrick: And some humility. And you want to surround yourself with people. There's. I always wanted that in my. In my role. I wanted people who could do their role ten times better than I could do it. That's why you're there. [00:47:59] Charles: That's right. That's right. [00:48:00] Patrick: I'm there to support you in that. [00:48:02] Charles: And, Patrick, another, another thing. Everything may not need to change. Some things are working. I mean, yeah, sometimes. Maybe it's a clean sweep. Right. Everything. What's working? Where? I ask this question often. Where the bright spots. [00:48:16] Patrick: That's right. [00:48:17] Charles: Where the bright spots. Show me the bright spots. [00:48:18] Patrick: Replicate those. That's right. Yeah. I'm thinking something's hit me a little off target here. Back to the baseball game. Charles. [00:48:27] Charles: Yeah. [00:48:27] Patrick: We've seen a number of errors. Throwing errors. The pitcher missing the ball at first base. [00:48:32] Charles: Right. [00:48:32] Patrick: They haven't scored them up there as ease, but we know their ease. We've seen three. We've seen three or four of them. [00:48:37] Charles: Right. [00:48:38] Patrick: And yet they're still in the game. [00:48:40] Charles: Yep, yep, yep. [00:48:42] Patrick: Right. How many errors do we make? All the time in leadership. But we're still in the game. [00:48:49] Charles: Still in the game. [00:48:49] Patrick: Don't. Don't beat yourself up and don't beat yourself. You know, the coach didn't run out here and berate the second baseman for missing that throw. No, it's like, no, you still got this. We're still in the game. [00:49:01] Charles: That's right. [00:49:01] Patrick: Keep your head in this. We're all going to make an error every once in a while. [00:49:04] Charles: And you know something, Patrick? We make an error and we don't live with that error, you let it go. [00:49:09] Patrick: Oh, you can, you can't. [00:49:11] Charles: If you carry that error around, you can't make the next play. [00:49:14] Patrick: I'm watching that with, with one of my cardinal fan players right now. [00:49:18] Charles: Okay. [00:49:18] Patrick: He's a rookie. [00:49:19] Charles: Okay. [00:49:19] Patrick: And he's phenomenal. I mean, he sees, he's in, he's in the show, right. But he's got, I want to say, ten or eleven errors in the last, like, several weeks. Teams don't have that in a season sometimes, like, this is one player. [00:49:35] Charles: Wow. [00:49:35] Patrick: And what's happening is getting in his head. [00:49:37] Charles: Yep, yep. [00:49:38] Patrick: It, and it does fail. Failure will get in your head. You got it. You got to put it in perspective and keep going. And as a leader, there has to be room for failure. [00:49:48] Charles: Absolutely. [00:49:49] Patrick: Or you're not going to get innovation. [00:49:51] Charles: So, Patrick, if that's the case, as a coach, how do you coach leaders who are perfectionists and don't tolerate failure? [00:50:00] Patrick: Huh? That's a great question. What are your thoughts on that? [00:50:04] Charles: You know, I want to have the conversation right now because that's something that I've, I need some work on as well to help people with. In terms of perfectionist, you talk about delays, right? Sometimes being a perfectionist, it slows things down and the world's not going to wait for us. So we got to take a risk at failing and recognizing that the thing failed. But we're not a failure. [00:50:24] Patrick: Yeah, well, you know, my, it was a little, when I asked you, what do you think? That was kind of a little tongue in cheek. That was a, that was a putting it back on you because you asked me as a coach, how would I handle it? And that, that's how I would handle it. [00:50:35] Charles: Exactly. [00:50:36] Patrick: It literally is talking to the leader and saying, yep. I don't know. Let's think of some of those questions. Charles. [00:50:40] Charles: There you go. [00:50:44] Patrick: How, how absolutely perfect do you really want it? Okay, let's not answer it. Right. Just how absolutely perfect do you really want it? Here's another question. Since you want it that perfect and you're the leader, how perfect are you? [00:51:02] Charles: Good question. [00:51:03] Patrick: Are you there? Are you ten? Do you never like, are you. Are you right? Are you Jesus? [00:51:10] Charles: Or whatever I've not seen. I can count to ten. [00:51:15] Patrick: I have a coachee right now that I have challenged to document three successes on things they're working on. [00:51:26] Charles: Right. [00:51:26] Patrick: And three failures. Between every call that we have document, I want to know what the failures are. So I want you to pay attention to those, and I want you to notice them. And as I'm saying it to my coachee, I'm thinking, just like you said a minute ago, I need to do that. [00:51:43] Charles: There you go. [00:51:44] Patrick: What are, what are the times over the last three weeks that I wasn't Marshall? Marshall Goldsmith has the question, am I being the person I want to be right now? [00:51:56] Charles: Great question. [00:51:58] Patrick: And, and I would ask a leader, do you, could you say that 100% of the time you can say that. I don't know. I don't know a human that honestly. I don't think that honestly could say that. [00:52:11] Charles: Not one. Not one. [00:52:12] Patrick: And I thought, if I'm dealing with an authentic coachee, I think that coach, you would have to acknowledge, no, I'm not. I'm not always what I'm looking, looking for. And we almost got hit with a foul ball, and we don't know where it is. The joys of being in a hometown baseball game. I never get a foul ball come my way until I got to St. Louis the first year I was there. We start, we go every year to catch some Cardinals game. And I chose. I was there for three nights, and I said, I want three different stadium experiences. [00:52:52] Charles: Okay? [00:52:53] Patrick: So I bought the suite, the Cardinals champions box, I bought behind home plate. [00:52:58] Charles: Okay. [00:52:58] Patrick: And then I bought far out corner, in right field, in the corner. [00:53:02] Charles: Okay. Okay. [00:53:03] Patrick: Because you see on tv, you see these guys catching all the home runs and foul balls. And I thought, surely on the foul line in those right hand seats, and three of them. Three of them came over there, and I caught two of them. [00:53:17] Charles: You caught two of them? [00:53:18] Patrick: I caught two of them. And there were. There was a family with two boys behind me, so each. They each got one. [00:53:23] Charles: Nice. [00:53:24] Patrick: But I. But I come here and I. I've even brought my glove here before and never actually caught one. But, yeah, Charles, I, you know, your question is great. How do you. How do you deal with a perfectionist? And I don't know. So that'd be one thing, is, do you. Do you, do, you know, help them see their blind spots? I'll give you one. I had an assignment through leadership systems one time to coach an executive. This is not a nonprofit and not a CEO, a C suite leader of a corporation, big company. And I was actually coaching four of them. We, several of us coaches were coaching the entire C suite, and I had fun. Four of them. And with most of them, you know, you sit down, you do some assessments, you ask the leader what they want to work on. With this one leader, he's like, I don't really have anything I need to work on. You just said it just like that. I'm like, okay, so everything's. Everything's going perfect for you? He goes, I mean, yeah, okay. That's the most challenging coaching assignment I've ever had. How do you get someone to even see that there's any room for growth and improvement and, like, okay, he was doing a good job, and his team was happy. I believe him. But, you know, Fortune 500 company CEO's keep executive coaches on retainer always. It's not because everything's going great or that everything's bad, right. It's just what got me here won't get me there. [00:55:01] Charles: That's right. [00:55:03] Patrick: So maybe that's a question for the perfectionist. Let's think about. So if you could get perfection in the work that's going on right now, you'd love that, right? Describe for me the next level work, right. That you're not, your organization's not yet capable of doing. Mm hmm. [00:55:21] Charles: Mm hmm. [00:55:22] Patrick: Will it take any error to get to that next level? Mm hmm. I don't know. [00:55:31] Charles: I like that. I like that. [00:55:34] Patrick: So we're in the bottom of the 6th. We have another running runner in scoring position, and at one point, we got to get one of these guys in. So Eric Pena is up to try to make that happen, although he's only batting 193, so I don't have a ton of confidence. He's got two balls and no strikes. We'll take a walk right now. There's two outs, though, so no room to play with. I'd love it if the, like, I'd love to end this podcast on, like, a home run by Columbia, and we could just walk away and pretend they won. [00:56:07] Charles: You know what? That'd be a great thing. [00:56:09] Patrick: I don't, because we're not where this show's about to wrap. We're not going to, we're not going to stay through the 9th inning, but let's see what happens here in the bottom of the six, and then we'll wrap this up. Charles, what's next for you? [00:56:19] Charles: Oh, my goodness. What is next for me? Patrick? [00:56:26] Patrick: I can see I stumped him, folks. Did you hear that? [00:56:28] Charles: You stumped me. No, no. I'm trying to. I'm asking myself how much air is. [00:56:32] Patrick: Not good on a broadcast. [00:56:33] Charles: I get that. I get that. I'm asking myself how much am I gonna disclose your next podcast? I'm gonna tell you some secrets, right. I got. I got some things in the mix right now. [00:56:41] Patrick: Yeah, right on. [00:56:42] Charles: That are. That are not ready to be made public yet. [00:56:44] Patrick: Super secret. [00:56:45] Charles: I'm gonna be that. That frank with you. I got some things that when they go public, I'm gonna come and announce them with Patrick James. [00:56:52] Patrick: I can't wait. [00:56:53] Charles: That's what I'm gonna do. [00:56:53] Patrick: I can't wait. I can't wait. I'm in this. I'm in a similar spot with a couple things. I've got. We did, we just launched a coaching training program online and got. Got a number of students now in that. And it's phenomenal because I'm learning from them because they're asking really good questions and they're catching things and the course goings. But what about this? And what about that? [00:57:15] Charles: There you go. [00:57:16] Patrick: Like I said, if you want to learn, teach. And I'm learning from my students right now. There always has to be a. What's next? [00:57:22] Charles: Always. We never stop. [00:57:24] Patrick: You know? You can't stop, Charles. We were all over the place tonight. I don't know how. I don't know if our listeners are going to stay in for the full. What did we do here? We did, we did an hour, an hour and a minute. But I enjoyed it, and I wanted to do this for us. And I wanted to say congrats again and thank you for 21 years of just incalculable value that you've brought into the world and just want to celebrate that again and say what a great success and contribution that's been for you. [00:57:57] Charles: I appreciate that, Patrick, and thank you for your leadership. Thank you for your work. You are making such a huge impact again. Words can't even capture it all. And thank you for your friendship and your mentorship and your support. And you're one of the few people out there in the world where I know I can call and you'll tell me like it is. You want some. What I want to hear. [00:58:14] Patrick: Isn't it fun? I mean, peers that. I don't know, Charles, I don't know. I don't know about you, but I think maybe, maybe 1015 years ago, you and I would have been. We would have seen ourselves more as competitors. [00:58:31] Charles: True, true, true. [00:58:32] Patrick: We'd be looking at this, this, you know, sort of, we'd be looking at a small arena going, you know, how do I position myself right? We've never had to really do that. And you, and I've said this every time you've been on the show, and I've. It's one of the things I've remembered most. You have said to me on more than one occasion in groups and individual, that each of us, when on our game, has value to bring to the world. [00:58:59] Charles: Yes. [00:59:00] Patrick: We've also said there is far more work out there than both of us together and another 10,000 consultants and coaches can handle. So we don't need to worry about that. [00:59:12] Charles: Two words. There's enough. Just, there's enough. [00:59:14] Patrick: We can. We can collaborate, promote each other, support each other. One of these days, who knows, maybe collaborate on something with each other. We're certainly doing it here. And I appreciate it. I appreciate you carving out time and a busy week and a busy life to say, yeah, go out to the ballgame, do a. [00:59:33] Charles: Absolutely, do it. [00:59:35] Patrick: Do a podcast with Patrick. Is this your second or third time on the show? I don't remember now. [00:59:38] Charles: This is, this, Patrick, this might be my third or fourth time. [00:59:41] Patrick: You need. We need to make this a fairly regular, you know, you need to come on a couple times a year and let's do it. Let's catch up. We've done it over, you know, beers a couple times without the microphones. But I think it's good to just let people listen into a conversation like this because I'm enriched by it. I truly, I have just the utmost respect for you and what you do, and we are going to get through this inning because they just ended it. So we're going to end this podcast at the end of six innings with no score. And we'll just, you'll just have to look it up. Maybe I'll put in the podcast episode page who ended up winning this game, if I remember to go back and look. But go Firefly. Hey, folks, whatever your jam is, go enjoy something. Go. Go to a baseball game. Go get on a boat, go out in the garden. Go sit on the porch and read. Go take your family on vacation, because one of the things we got to do is take care of ourselves. We can't just stay. We can't. You don't stay in the batter's box, Charles. When you're. When your turn's up, you get to go sit in the dugout for another nine. So let's go sit in the dugout. Hey, thanks again. And thank you all for tuning in and putting up with this experiment tonight. Lead on.