Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to the Leadership window podcast with Dr. Patrick Jenks. Each week through a social sector lens, Patrick interviews leaders and experts and puts us in touch with trends and tips for leading effectively. Patrick is a board certified executive coach, a member of the Forbes Coaches Council, a best selling author, award winning photographer and a professional speaker. And now, here's Dr. Patrick Jinks.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Hello everyone. Welcome. Welcome to episode 128 of the Leadership Window. I'm Dr. Patrick Jenks. Glad you came along.
Really been looking forward to this episode now for a while. Can't believe it is actually a reality. You've actually heard my guest today before. He's been on the show I think a couple of times.
My guest is Monroe Free. This time he comes on to this program wearing a little different hat. We started a certification program earlier in the year for leadership coaches training coaches to be better coaches. And our program is accredited or approved by the center for Credentialing and Education who awards board certification in coaching at a global level. And so our training, our 30 hour training program certifies coaches with through the Leader's Perspective TLP certified certification. And it qualifies toward required training toward board certification. So we were really excited to launch the training earlier in the year. And if you're interested in sharpening your coaching skills and want to become a certified coach, reach out to us and let us know. Monroe went through the program with us and got his TLP coaching certification but for a slightly different reason than some of the coaches that go through the program. Monroe has had the attention, the intention, we've been talking about this for some time now, of joining us at the Leader's Perspective as an adjunct leadership coach. We have grown this business over the last eight years exponentially and we are at a place now of needing to expand the team. And so Monroe is our first certified adjunct leadership coach with the leader's perspective. And we've just been so excited about that. I met Monroe a number of years ago. We have been colleagues in the nonprofit sector. Monroe's organization, Habitat for Humanity in Greenville, South Carolina here in my home state, was a client of mine, has been a client of mine for several years. We have worked together on with different groups including our state nonprofit association and just really more importantly and so wonderfully and organically become really close friends and we just have a high degree of respect and trust for each other.
We are I think kindred spirits in a lot of ways and think about a lot of things alike. But we also are different enough that we bring value to each other and complement each other, I think for what we're doing. And we're just really excited to have Monroe joining us and hitting the ground running with us. With some teams over the coming year. Monroe is wrapping up. I want, is it 40 years, Monroe of service not just with Habitat, but in the social sector.
A 40 year career in what I would just say is the epitome of servant leadership. And his most recent and very successful and fulfilling venture was as the president and CEO of Habitat Greenville. He wraps that career up this month at the end of this year and hits the ground running with us right away. So we want to have him on the show through that lens and just talk a little bit about his journey here, his purpose for wanting to be here, and some of his philosophies on leadership, what he's seen and what it is he's wanting to do. So with all that being said, Monroe, this is really cool. We spent three hours this morning looking at some things and talking about the business and the partnership. And then we went and had some good Mexican food and now we're ready to just have a conversation. Thanks for, thanks for coming, man.
[00:04:25] Speaker C: After that, Mexican food. May have to take a nap. Siesta right afterwards.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: But we can edit, we can edit this. So if we, you know, if we, if we need to pause a little bit, we'll just pause and we'll take it back.
[00:04:36] Speaker C: But it's good to be with you. It's, it's always fun. Always fun.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Well, that's the thing, isn't it? You know, it's this isn't it really, you know, it's cliche to say, you know, if you're working a job where you're having fun, you're fulfilled, you know, there's no, never a day of work. Obviously there's work, but it really doesn't feel like it. Most of the time it just feels like just fulfillment, doesn't it?
[00:04:57] Speaker C: It does, absolutely.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah. You're not new to the coaching world or the consulting business world with your company you've consulted before and that's been mostly in, also in the nonprofit sector, has it?
[00:05:10] Speaker C: Not almost all of it. There's been a little bit of it that's in the for profit sector, but most of it's been nonprofit.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Well, you're like me. There's a mission bent behind this and we're doing more of the for profit work as well. As we've grown, we've, we've, we've evolved into serving other clients and we've got some corporate clients now. But still the mission bent and the. The bulk of it is in the social sector.
[00:05:35] Speaker C: And that's the way, one of the ways I think I've grown over my career I came, have come to appreciate that people in the for profit world are part of the greater mission in our culture to make life better for everyone. And they have a role to play in that like the nonprofit does. If they do it well, they can do some things that the nonprofit world actually cannot do. So it's helpful well, and there's a.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: Symbiotic relationship because the nonprofits wouldn't exist without corporate support in communities.
And corporations wouldn't be as effective as they are without a workforce that has a social sector safety net and community improvement, quality of life factor. And so there's interdependence to a degree. There's.
[00:06:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's right. And I think, you know, our economy is such that the business world, the corporate world, creating meaningful work for people where wages are fair, you know, makes the whole system. Makes the whole system work. We were on one end, the habitat. We've been at one end of that economic cycle. But there are other economic levels of that economic cycle that only in the business world can do. And that's critical to the health of a community.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: It's all an ecosystem. And you and I just spent three hours this morning talking about systems and how they're all connected and they are. Organizations are systems.
People, individuals within an organization are systems. A person is a system.
[00:07:14] Speaker C: Preach it.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: You know, and so we're, you and I are both digging deep into that these days and really enjoying it. The ability to help organizations and teams see that. And when that epiphany happens and the realization that we're not just this entity.
[00:07:34] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: We are part of a system which is part of a system which is part of a system which is part of a system. So we are, we're doing what we call systemic team coaching now or what we call coaching the system. Not just coaching the individual and not even just coaching the team, but coaching the system. So we'll get, we'll get into that a little bit later. I want to know. I know a little bit about this already, but I think I would be good for our listeners to hear a little bit about your journey here. Why the leader's perspective now? Why go through a coaching certification program and join this team and say, you know, I don't really have to do this right now, but this is what I'm going to do next with my life where did that. Where's this coming from?
[00:08:16] Speaker C: Well, I appreciate the question, Patrick, and I think where you started, 40 years of experience in this wonderful, blessed and sometimes cursed nonprofit world.
40 years of experience in that I have been gifted, been given an opportunity and given experiences, ways to learn.
I just gained so much from that, from that nonprofit community. And I think I have a stewardship responsibility to let others benefit from that experience that I've had helping some people grow in that sector.
So you know, there's this, there's this sense in me that if I can pass along what I've learned and how I've grown and the experiences I've had in the nonprofit world, that that becomes eternal. It moves, it gives, gives it away. And that general to the next generation, then the next generation gives it away and it continues. I so believe in the nonprofit sector. It's a way for me to keep it moving forward.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: When we, in my organizational leadership experience in the nonprofit world, you interview candidates and they all say the same thing. When you say, why do you want to come to work at a nonprofit? They all say, I really want to make a differ. Yeah, yeah, of course you're going to say that, right?
What I'm hearing you say is a little beyond that. It. Because I do hear you saying, I want to pass it on, I want to make a difference, I want to give back. But there's also a tone of I feel accountable for that.
[00:10:08] Speaker C: I do.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: And that's different than just I want, I enjoy it and I want to do it. It's a calling for you.
[00:10:15] Speaker C: Well, it is. I think calling is a, is a good word for it. I. But I, I really am.
I could not have asked for a better life experience than I've had. I've learned, I've grown, I've met the most interesting people.
I mean, it's just a rich life, full life that I've had. And I think because I have been given so much, it's my responsibility to give. And so here's an opportunity and to do that. And the leadership leaders perspective in particular is a place that I feel is most consistent with my philosophy, my worldview, my perspective, how you help.
I think, you know, it's just, it's a good match. And so it makes sense for me to, to partner and then to be able to do that with someone that I first of all call friend is just a great way for me to go to the next place in my career.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Oh, it's a cool place to be. And you know, I feel incredibly. This is so fortunate for us, the timing couldn't be better for the leader's perspective because we've hit a, you know, we've hit a place of we've got to expand the team if we're going to be able to serve more clients. And that's part of our mission is. Or our vision is to see a faster, more agile, bolder nonprofit sector. You know, this, the world, the work is excruciatingly slow because it's consensus building and it's board governance and it's.
[00:12:05] Speaker C: You.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Know, it's figuring out it's moving social change, which is just, you know, it's the hardest job in the world. And so it's slow. And part of our work is we want to make it. We want to make it faster and more agile, the little bit that we can have an influence on. So it takes an expansion of the team.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: And I just. I mean, I couldn't. Honestly, I couldn't be more pleased. You know, it's difficult. People who know me know I like to have control over this. You know, I've built this brand, and I've built it on a style and a personality and a feeling and a philosophy that is all mine. And so how do you trust and build on that and take something that's been a solopreneurship and expand it with people that are going to sort of do that same thing? And what I've come to realize is if I can find someone like you who understands that and understands that it's. It is about brand integrity, but at the same time brings a richer, deeper, different set of skills and philosophies than what I have, that's what makes the business better. Not duplications of me. And I coach on that all the time, but to take it internally is a little more challenging. And so I'm more and more really starting to see that. And I just think that the timing for this and the feel of it is just really exciting.
[00:13:34] Speaker C: Well, it certainly is a great timing for me, something to do. Next month, I retire. And I don't want to retire just to sit in my recliner, though. I do want to sit in my recliner a little bit. But I think having meaningful work to do, and I've had some options, but I couldn't think of a more meaningful place to do this work than the leader's perspective.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: So I'd like to know, let's give a little bit of honor and deference and just context, too, to the nonprofit world. And let's take Your most recent venture with Habitat.
What do you walk away from Habitat for Humanity feeling proudest about?
[00:14:24] Speaker C: Well, that's a great question. I've thought a lot about that. I've been asked that a number of times over the last few months, and I thought about it a good bit. I think, Patrick, if I dig deep inside of me, I think the thing that I'm proudest of is the way some people that I have led or coached, management team in particular, but not just management team, other staff people too, have really grown.
They have. Their skills are sharper, their expanded skills, they've found more. More about themselves and they found how to maximize their talents better.
They, you know, that growth, seeing the growth of people around me is the people that I'm responsible for or responsible to is.
Is really the brightest of the accomplishments for me.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: What were your levers for that? Like, what did you do to influence that as a leader? How did you shape the path where that was possible for them?
[00:15:35] Speaker C: Well, I think the first job of the leaders, creating a safe space, creating a culture, if you will, that's safe. That's safe for people to fail in, but safe for people to succeed in. Too. So really.
And that was both as a culture, but, but I had to do that.
I had to work with them in such a way that they felt like they could stretch even if they did not hit all the goals and targets, that they could stumble as they were trying to move forward. So a safe space, I think, was a big part of it. The second thing I think I had to do was provide them with some opportunities for growth. And Patrick, you worked with a number of our leaders in our organization to provide them some coaching.
We, you know, we, we've got to give them an opportunity to really hone their skills, learn new skills. And so a safe space, opportunities to grow. And it's not just opportunities to grow within, with people from outside the organization.
It is also opportunities in the organization to give them some challenges in the organization to take on projects, to do things, to lead things on their own.
So those are the two big things I think that I have done.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: What comes to mind as you're talking is I'm remembering some of our team coaching sessions with your, with your leaders. And I coach a lot of groups whose senior team remains fairly quiet when the CEO is in the room.
And because the CEO either dominates the conversation or wants the engagement, but people don't feel the psychological safety to speak up with the CEO there, particularly when it comes to anything that might be challenging to the CEO's viewpoint on things. I've never noticed that with your team. Your team has always been. I've always felt like I was truly coaching a team of people that would speak across the room at each other, next to each other, back and forth with you. There just seemed to always be a comfort level with the team being vulnerable enough and skilled enough to add value to those conversations. I never felt there was any reluctance from your team.
[00:18:17] Speaker C: And Patrick, I hope that's what we're trying, that's what we've tried to create. And I can't take full credit for that. They had to bring some courage to the table, too. But we tried to, we tried to create. And I would say, if you ask me what's the place that I have grown the most over 40 years of leading nonprofits, the place different, if you will, from early in my career is early in my career, I saw being the CEO is kind of like Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, right? I was the Snow White. I had the answers and all the other folks around me were supposed to just go carry out my bidding.
And it was very top down.
I really, that's the way I have evolved. And I evolved because I think what I finally came to understand is it was better for me, surely, if I had that shared responsibility, but it's better for the organization. Your organization is just going to be better, stronger, more able to serve. If you get more ideas on the table, if you have honest dialogue, if you create a culture where we're all in this together, certainly you're going to get a better product.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. And you're sharing a little bit about what you've, what you've learned along the way. And that was actually going to be my next question. So now you have to come up with another one.
What, what do you, what's been your biggest one or two learnings? And I would say, even over the past, you know, the latter half, even of that, of your career, what would you say you've learned in that process that you would not have known or found out otherwise?
[00:20:14] Speaker C: Well, that's a, that's another wonderful question. And I gave you probably one of the answers. But, you know, there certainly are other things. I, you know, we hear a lot today about diversity and equity, diversity and equality and inclusion, togetherness. I mean, not belonging. It's word I was looking for. We, we, we hear a lot about that.
And you know, I'm a, I'm a white, old, white male from the south.
And I, I certainly grew up In a, in a very male dominated, patriarchal kind of world.
And what I've had to learn is how, how blind I can be to some things and how other people who are not of my, at the CEO level, but people in our organization had a role to really teach me about what diversity was and how to think about inclusion, how to be, to not discriminate against women, to be very point blank or not to let those stereotypes of people blind me to real opportunities and possibilities. I think over the last 10 years that's probably been where I have, where I have grown and learned, learned the most.
I think, I think the other thing I've had to learn and actually Patrick, you and I were talking about this a little bit at lunch that how the macro issues of our culture affect what happens day to day in our lives and the day to day in our, in our nonprofits. The cultural, and the cultural norms as they evolve and change may be as simple as how generation, generations think differently as they come into the workforce.
I've had to learn how to think about that in light of organizational growth.
And boy, you know that that's been hard. I'm not sure I'm good at it yet, but I really, it really has been important. I would have never. All I ever thought about early in my career was what was happening right in front of me, you know, and now you realize how cultural norms and cultural events really do affect how an organization is able to grow.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Really timely that you would talk about this, you know, and a lot of people maybe listening to this show know that I'm, I'm continuing to go through additional levels of a coaching practicum with a global cohort of systemic team coaches, with one of the, with the Jedi master of, of this stuff and one of the models. And this is not a new model to this. People may have heard this model.
When you're looking through a systemic lens in a one on one coaching, it's. It's you and the individual and you're coaching the individual and helping them become a better individual and a better leader and yes, maybe helping them understand their role as a part of a bigger system or team, but you're still not really looking at the whole thing.
We talk about six lenses, starting with individual and then going all the way out to the environment around us. And what you just said, I think created a real good distinction for me.
We talk a lot about what we can control and what we can't in our organizations and in our lives. In fact, we use the model CIA, what can you control. What can you influence if you can't control it and what can you neither control nor influence. And so you just have to adapt to it or you have to accept it. The aim.
There's a model or a framework, an acronym, I guess is the best word called Pestle.
P, E, S, T, L, E. Okay. It's the sixth lens in when we talk about coaching the system.
And so you go from the individual to one on one, relationships within a team, to the team, to the system that the team lives within and the organization. And the lens just keeps getting wider and wider. And that sixth lens is where Pestle is and the acronym is. The P is political.
There's a political. There are political things happening that we might be able to influence. Some of it, much of it at the local level, we just can't. We adapt to, you know, the political changes that happen around us. But we can influence a good bit of it. We can't outright control it. Okay, then there's the E is economic. There are economic factors and events happening around the world that affect what we do. Economics and politics together have a huge impact on business and organizations and individuals. Then you go to the S, which is social, and there's a social fabric and evolution to the country into the world and to our communities that's happening around us. We might not be able to control it.
Right. But we have to understand that it's happening. We have to, we have to follow it and pay attention to it so that we can make the right kinds of adaptations, the A and CIA, that will make sure that we stay relevant and that we're thriving and that we're productive. So political, economic and social. The T is technological. All the technological advances and changes that are happening affect our work, affect our teams. We can control some of that. Yeah, we can influence some of it. And some of it is beyond both of those for us. But we still have to stay on top of it. We still have to know that it's coming. We have to understand the implications on our work and make the necessary adjustments.
The L is the legal aspects of the. Of organizational work. Ever changing HR laws, for example, ever changing that, that a lot of HR vice presidents are still trying to keep up with. Right.
And then there's the final E, which is environmental.
And so you think about those. All those things political, economic, social, technological, legal, environmental, those all sound like things out of our control, that we are in many cases, what I hear is we are victims of those things, but we shouldn't be. We should be responders. To those things in appropriate and effective ways to keep our people moving forward. That's what I heard in what you were saying, is the learning has been understanding how those external factors require internal changes that we have to make to adapt or we die.
[00:27:52] Speaker C: That's exactly right. And you know, in some ways, one of the real hard parts of the job as CEO is you're called to look around the corner, see what's coming.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's.
[00:28:03] Speaker C: I mean, that's what we're talking about.
[00:28:05] Speaker B: Yeah. In motorcycle riding, we call that seeing around the curve.
[00:28:08] Speaker C: Yes. Seeing around. That's exactly. I mean, and.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Or see through the curve. That's.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: You got. Yeah. So you got to. You don't have to. But the best CEOs are able to see things as they're coming and be able to make adjustments in the organization before.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: They get overwhelmed.
[00:28:34] Speaker C: And, you know, so, you know, it's, it's.
I heard a description of a great preacher one time. They preached with a Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other hand. And the point is, we have to be looking at the newspaper. We have to be seeing what's happening in our world and. And be ready to adjust to it. It's not just being smarter about your organization. You gotta be smarter and deal with the information you're getting about the world, too.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Here's a question for both of us maybe to think about.
Another term is coming to mind as we have this conversation. Simon Sinek's book, the Infinite Game, uses the term existential flex.
And what he means by that is what you just said, the ability to see through the curve and make changes before they're needed.
[00:29:31] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: And, you know, we all know the stereotypical examples of companies that didn't. Right. Kodak and Blockbuster Video and, you know, these kinds of companies that didn't see through the curve.
And so my question, and I think something that we should explore pretty actively in our sector, is what is the overarching existential flex that the social sector needs to be making right now? Like what you think 10 years ahead? Just 10?
[00:30:03] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:30:04] Speaker B: Let alone 20 or 30 years. What's going to catch this sector and kill us if we're not ready for it when it comes?
[00:30:12] Speaker C: Yeah. God, that makes me want to retire.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: I know. I don't know the answer. It's just a question. So my job's not to know the answer, Remember, Patrick, I take.
[00:30:21] Speaker C: It's just twisted a little bit and say you have to do that in the context of being who you are.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:30] Speaker C: Of your authenticity as an organization and fulfilling the mission that is yours. Right.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: But still flexible.
[00:30:41] Speaker C: But still flexible. So how do you not give up your identity but flex to the environment around you is. It's really.
It's really a challenge.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: Well, we talk about AI as one of those things.
[00:30:57] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Right. And we're behind the curve on that already. We're way behind the curve.
[00:31:00] Speaker C: I am.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Well, I am, too. And the sector is. Let's face it.
[00:31:04] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: The nonprofit sector is behind the. I think. I think the sector stays behind the curve on everything. We're last to it.
[00:31:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: That's not intended to be an indictment to anybody. It's just. That's been. My experience in the sector is that we're the slowest to it. And so AI is one of those things or those kinds of technologies that if our nonprofit organizations can't figure out how to navigate that in the context of serving clients and improving lives and changing social conditions, the relevance of the nonprofit sectors is going to really drop. Someone said the other day, and you've heard this in some of the circles that I spend time in, the question gets asked, is AI going to replace coaches?
And the conventional wisdom among the leading coach theorists and practitioners is no. However, only coaches who understand and know how to leverage AI will survive.
[00:32:09] Speaker C: That's fascinating.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: And I would imagine that's the case with almost any industry.
I don't know that it will. It'll replace some things, but won't replace every industry and every profession. It will only make.
It will only be imperative that those industries and professions are able to navigate and leverage the AI. That's just one example.
[00:32:37] Speaker C: How would you, Patrick, how would you add value above AI?
[00:32:46] Speaker B: This is my show, Monroe.
I get to ask the questions around here.
[00:32:51] Speaker C: Well, here's. My wife's a cpa.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:55] Speaker C: And one of the things you'll see is that some high percentage of accounting jobs are going to be replaced by AI.
And so the question becomes, for accountants, CPAs, what's the value add that I bring that AI cannot bring to the table? And that's.
[00:33:18] Speaker B: That's why I say some. Some professions are more conducive to. To AI taking over.
[00:33:25] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: If I think about accounting, and I'm definitely not an accountant, but it is.
It's probably more science than coaching. Coaching is probably a tad more art.
So scientifically, when it comes to. I mean, just think about the basics of accounting, a balance sheet. And Monroe, I did a workshop recently on nonprofit finance, and I used AI to create sample balance sheets, cash flow statements, and income statements for case study in this workshop.
And I asked AI to use the same organization with the same finances for all three statements so that they would truly that like what a really. And in 12 seconds I had a full set of financial and I did the math on them, I double checked them because you need to do that with AI and everything was accurate. How the cash flow bottom line ended up on the net income statement and the balance sheet showed where it was unbelievable.
And I can see that in an accounting field when it comes to at least the actual math of accounting and categorization of accounting, I can see AI taken over. What AI can't do at least yet is formulate the trust between client and provider have relationship that creates onus and mutual accountability and mutual benefit that and I know machine learning is exactly that. It's learning. But I think you learn more in the experience. And so I think there's things that only a coach is going to be able to do that AI can't do, at least in the horizon I can see.
[00:35:18] Speaker C: So it's the question with AI, how do we, if it can't provide trust, I mean the human relationship trust.
But how do we use it as an instrument to build trust?
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:35] Speaker C: How do we use it as an asset to build trust?
That's an interesting question I had. You know, there's a young guy that's started a great little organization called Carolina Adaptive Golf and I've been helping him some. I was with him recently and needed, we needed to have a press release sent out. He's real comfortable in the technology and he did the AI and said, you know, here's some basic points about that are needed in the press release. And literally 10 seconds later there's a press release. And I, you know, I've seen lots of press releases in my career and dang, this was good. It's good.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:21] Speaker C: And I mean, I'm. I'm shocked. But, but how do we use it as an instrument to enhance, build trust with our key stakeholders?
[00:36:32] Speaker B: Well, in the nonprofit sector, I think it can help us reduce costs.
[00:36:36] Speaker C: Yes, it can.
[00:36:37] Speaker B: Which is of great interest to donors and board members and grantees and beneficiaries and things. So if it can make us more efficient, we can accomplish our missions better for an example. But yeah, it's a great set of questions. We could do a podcast series on that. We could have a show just based on that.
A related question, but a little bit different is as you move now into coaching leaders with us primarily, but not exclusively in the Nonprofit sector.
What are you anticipating, based on your experience, are the leadership challenges you would imagine coming up most often for nonprofit senior leaders?
What have you seen to be the top two or three challenges that sector leaders are faced with and will continue to be faced with moving forward?
[00:37:33] Speaker C: Yeah, Patrick, I think what I hear and what I read in terms of data, too, is the nonprofit leaders are really struggling with a sense of loneliness.
They feel themselves all alone on having the support system around them. And I think not only do they want that, they need that. I think we all need that.
And so I think the trusting relationship, where there's authenticity is critical.
And it's a challenge. I mean, truthfully, it's a challenge.
And so I hope through this that I can provide some of that for some leaders.
I think nonprofit leaders need a safe place to explore ideas.
I find that nonprofit leaders are very innovative, creative types, but they need a place where they can more fully explore those ideas. One of the things I realized early on in my career was that anytime I spoke as the CEO, people heard that as me speaking ex cathedra.
And so you have to be careful in an organization when you start talking about you. Your ideas, because people will take them more seriously or, you know, they'll take them as orders. Yeah, they do, absolutely. And so having a safe place to really explore, and then there's a. There's a need to. To just have a place where you can learn. I mean, really, you know, CEOs need a place where they can explore ideas, where they can chase ideas and learn what they need to learn. So those are the kinds of things that I think about, I think.
And part of what I guess I'm saying, Patrick, is I see that the issues that I see CEOs struggling the most with are not practical issues, though. That happens. Yeah. I mean, but it's easier to find solutions than it is to those.
The issues that you can't touch, that you can't put numbers to.
[00:40:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The political nuances of a community, you know, the political nuances of your team. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
[00:40:31] Speaker C: All those kinds of. The soft stuff, the developing your soft skills might be what I'm saying.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah. No, so I heard three things. The loneliness aspect is real. We had a guest on the show, Nick Johnson from.
Oh, gosh, I should remember this.
Norway, I think. Norway, maybe Sweden. I don't remember. I have to go back and look. It's been a little while, but he's the author of the bestseller Executive Loneliness, and he talks very eloquently. About that issue and how real it is, not just in the nonprofit sector. And then I heard a place to ideate and a place to learn. I would just add one thing to the ideation. I think nonprofit leaders need an empowerment by their boards and stakeholders to not only ideate, but test those ideas.
I got crossways with the board back in the day when I was in leadership because the board, interestingly, was a pretty conservative board. And I don't mean politically conservative, I mean just they were. They were risk averse.
[00:41:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: And so as we were on one hand saying we wanted to be innovative and cutting edge and create a new, you know, invent the new, you know, version of ourselves, the ideas of that were great. But when we went to implement them, if they involved any kind of PR risk, financial risk, their own political clout, risk in the community, then the brakes came on. And that can be really. I've seen that frustrate a lot of CEOs that just would move bolder if they had a governing body, for example, that would do, or if they had a staff that they really believed could pull it off. And so it's both again, it's the whole system there.
[00:42:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
And I think too, I can speak from my career.
I've had a lot of good ideas that were really good ideas, but not perfect ideas that I needed somebody to question me to help draw the best idea out of a good idea, you know, the difference between good and better and better and best. And. And I can't speak for everybody, but I do that better in a conversation than I do going and sitting on the mountain and waiting for the light to be imparted. Right. So I think there's an opportunity there to Listen to some CEOs listen to their ideas and then say, yeah, what other ways could you.
Just some questions that draw out of people the difference between better, good and better and better and bad.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: That's the heart of it. That's the heart of it. You just got to the heart of the whole philosophy of coaching, certainly the TLP philosophy of coaching and the idea that the pursuit of perfection is so limiting sometimes because it paralyzes us. Because until we get to perfection, and I think the nonprofit sector is. Is struggles with this maybe more than anybody is if it's not perfect, if you can't put a, you know, you can't dot every I and cross every T, it's a no go, you know, and so, you know, the whole don't let. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good or even Great is a real thing. So you're your continuum from good to better. You know, at the end of that continuum is this elusive perfection.
[00:44:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: That, that actually paralyzes us many times because we think, well, if we can't get there, everybody has to agree and we got to make sure this person is going to be okay with it and that person is going to be okay, and there's no financial risk.
Yeah, it's, that's, that's a tough space. And you partially answered my next question, which was if you could go back 20 years and have an executive coach, what do you, what do you wish today? Well, I wish I had a coach right about, Right about now. If I'd had a coach to help me through, think through certain challenges or situations.
What, what comes to mind, even without implicating anything or anyone. But the kinds of places in your leadership where you, looking back, you think, boy, really could have used a coach right then.
[00:45:14] Speaker C: Yeah, Patrick, there, there are all sorts of places I could have used to coach more than I could ever count. But I think there's a, there was a couple of places in particular, you know, you know my history. I worked with people who were homeless and ran shelters and feeding programs, and there were points along the way there with trying to figure out what was the best services to deliver to help people begin to move toward recovery.
And I think here's a, here's one where we had a. We had a medical and dental clinic and it was hard to find it, and et cetera, et cetera, but we, we ultimately shut that program down, and it's one of the great regrets in my life, and I wish I had had a coach to help me sort through more than the numbers of that program.
It wasn't. And how it fit into the overall service provision of that population that was, that was homeless.
You know, when I came to habitat in 2009, and it was in the middle of, of the financial crisis, 2009, 2010, and I saw that Habitat was sitting on lots of assets because of the mortgages that Habitat held.
And, but we had no money to grow with, and we had this great number on our balance sheet, but no cash to grow with, and would have loved to have had somebody just to sit and pull out of me and push on me to find a way to generate cash.
We finally did, but it was many years later, and when we stumbled upon something, and I think at that point we could have had more impact earlier if I had had a good coach to really make me ask the right questions. Purs. Pursue the right answers.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Well, you're hitting on it. I want to emphasize this for our listeners because people will engage a coach thinking they're engaging a consultant.
[00:48:02] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: What you're saying here repeatedly is you wish you'd had someone drawing out your best thinking.
[00:48:08] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:48:09] Speaker B: Right. Making you ask the right questions. You did not just say, although you might have wished this too, but you're not saying, I wish someone could come in and wave the magic wand and fix this for us.
[00:48:23] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: You're saying, I wish I could have had someone challenge my thinking. And the benefit of that is it's great if someone could have come in and fixed it. Oh, here's how you get cash. Pull levers A, B and C and you'll get cash. Wow. It really works. Thank you. We'll pay you. But when someone challenges you to come up with the ideas and the solutions and get creative about it, you get learning. Yeah, that's right. And you get the kind of experience that is not just time on the job, it's learning that you can apply later on.
[00:48:54] Speaker C: Maybe what I'm saying and thought about this real carefully, but maybe what I'm saying is if so much of what limited us were my limitations, my limitations to think broadly enough, my limitations to think thoroughly enough, and I think somebody to help me think broad, more broadly, more thoroughly, more intently, maybe more deeply. Deeply would have.
Would have been a really a real asset not just to me, but to the organization that I was trying.
Was trying to lead.
The limitations were self imposed.
[00:49:49] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah.
Let's, let's wind this down a little bit.
Let's talk about, you know, the next, the next iteration of Monroe Free.
What are you, what do you believe are the gifts and talents now that you've developed that you have innately that you think brings the greatest value to this next work of coaching leaders curiosity.
Well, that's it. That's the big one.
That's a coaching competency for sure.
[00:50:29] Speaker C: That's. I had somebody tell me one time I was the most curious person they had ever met.
It seemed to me to be quite the compliment, but I really do. I like to think about not just what, but what else. And I like to think about not just what, but why.
I like to think about how do we connect dots, how dots connect to each other.
I like to think like that.
And so I think that is a huge part of what I can bring to the table.
Patrick, you know me pretty well and I really like people. I really care about people. I want to see people succeed.
I'm a, you know, I'm a trout fisherman. It's more fun for me to take somebody new and teach them how to trout fish now than it is to go catch fish myself. I really, that's where the joy in life is for me at this point. I've had a great career. I want to help some other people get to experience the joys that I've experienced. So I think that curiosity, that deep care for people that have this whole broad breadth of experience. I mean, I've seen a lot in 40 years of nonprofit work. I've seen a whole lot. And how does that experience help some other people? Those are the three things I think about.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: Yeah, well, those are definitely gifts to bring to the world work. You've, we, you've, we've used the term 40 years of experience a few times. And I'm always reminded that there's a big difference between 40 years of experience and one year of experience repeated 40 times.
[00:52:17] Speaker C: That's ex.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: And, you know, you've, you've been through enough diverse set of circumstances, organizational structures, experiences, joys, pleasures, failures, disappointments, that it truly is a culmination of 40 years. And not just I held a position for 40 years, but I have.
[00:52:38] Speaker C: Yeah, I certainly, I certainly hope, I certainly hope so. Patrick, you heard me, you heard me recently talk about the impact that my father made on my career choice in life, but there was another way that I don't talk about very much, but my dad moved from, in his career, he moved from a very fundamentalist kind of perspective on the religion. And by the end of.
Just a snippet of that, we were not even allowed as a. When I was a kid to even have old maid cards in our house. It was, you know, that was anathema. By the, by the. Before he died, my dad would sit and play penny poker with me. So.
And that sounds silly, and in some ways it is silly, but my father modeled growth for me and evolution. Evolution, change, learning, not staying in the same place.
And you move from the ABCs to learning words, to learning how sentences, to learning how to read books, to, you know, and that's a great gift that I was given.
And I think I will continue to grow. I think doing coaching with folks will enhance my life. I'll learn and grow, too.
[00:54:12] Speaker B: I am very, very much looking forward to our continued work together.
It's an exciting chapter for both of us. And so thanks for being here. Thanks for carving out some time for the show and letting our listeners get a little bit more. A lot of our listeners know you. And so I, I think they're going to be thrilled to see this. And I am anxious for 2025. I'm really excited. So thanks again, Monroe.
[00:54:40] Speaker C: All right. Thank you, Patrick.
[00:54:41] Speaker B: Lead on, folks.
