Episode 131 - Conflict and Peacebuilding with Dr. Doris Wesley

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to the Leadership window podcast with Dr. Patrick Jenks. Each week through a social sector lens, Patrick interviews leaders and experts and puts us in touch with trends and tips for leading effectively. Patrick is a board certified executive coach, a member of the Forbes Coaches Council, a best selling author, award winning photographer and a professional speaker. And now, here's Dr. Patrick Jenks. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Hey everyone. Hope you're all doing well. Unbelievably, January's over, folks. We're 1 12th into 2025. Can you believe that? That's incredible. Fist faster every year. So much going on. Go back. I don't remember which episode it was, but I had a guest on my show a couple of years ago who's a futurist and we had a conversation about the speed, the acceleration rate of change and how that continues to grow and how that is affecting what makes things feel like there's so much, that things are happening so much faster because gosh, I really, I can't believe that 20. We're, we're already in, we're in this, we're in February and we're going. Or practically as of, as of the recording of this episode, we're just a couple of days out of February. But yeah, we're, we're right there. This is episode 131 of the Leadership Window and we're excited to just keep raising the level of content and quality and significance here through a mutual friend and colleague. I met our guest, Dr. Doris Wesley just a week or so ago and man was I thinking, gosh, I wish I'd have met you years ago. I was so excited, so attuned to what she's doing in the world. It's, she's just one of the, that you, you look at the work she's doing, you're going and really, you know, it don't. It's almost like she makes me sick, right? She's so good at everything. She just does so many things. I honestly, I don't know how to, to introduce her to you because she's a, she's a, she's a faculty member, a university level faculty member. She's, she's a PhD, she lectures, she's an author, she's a coaching consultant, she's a researcher. She is a non profit executive leader and founder and we're going to talk about all of that stuff and her research in particular and her body of work and passion is around conflict. And you know, that's a term we listen to and we hear the term and we're like, ooh, this the word Itself kind of draws up some conflict in us. It's a prickly word because it's a prickly thing. But what fascinated me, and I can't wait for her to tell you more about it and say more for me, is how is her transition from how. I don't even want to spoil it because I don't even want to use the terms that she uses, just where conflict has turned into the work that she does now with so many organizations. But I'm going to let her say more. Doris, I really, I'm so excited about this episode with you because of our conversation. We talked offline just to get to know each other a little bit. And as we wrapped up the phone, I told Doris, I said, man, I wish we had just hit the record at the beginning of this conversation. This would have made the great episode. But I said, let's just do it again. We'll talk even deeper. Doris, thank you so much for the outreach, for connecting with me, for inspiring me, and for carving out time for listeners of this program to dig into this complex topic for a little bit. Welcome to this show. [00:04:02] Speaker A: You so much, Dr. Patrick, for having me, and thank you, everyone, for listening. It's. It's so good to be here. So good to be here. [00:04:10] Speaker B: So, you know, obviously I introduced you as someone all over the place. I mean, this, this woman is what, from. From Nigeria to Raleigh, Durham. There's a book title for you, Doris. Tell. Just give us a little context, a little background. What, what is. Why are we talking with you about conflict today on this show? What is your journey that's brought you to this? What are you, what are you doing in the world and. And what inspired it? [00:04:38] Speaker A: Yes. Thank you so much. Again, I like to say that I am a conflict and communication pracademic. And the reason I use the word pracademic is because I bring in lots of academic perspective and so more like an academic and a practitioner. So I'm not the regular academic that just stays within the confines of academia and, you know, in front of the classroom. But I try so hard to go out into the field, go out into the world and, you know, work with a lot of people that are engaged in various kinds of conflicts. So I see myself as someone that, you know, goes into different conflict situation, whether it's on the individual, the group, organizational community, or even institutional level, and just try to resolve and transform those conflicts. Because really the basic thing is that everything is still the same principle. It's just the different settings that we are applying them to. In addition to that, I'm a social impact entrepreneur where I founded the nonprofit JAM Daughters Network that is currently addressing the issue of fatherlessness. And so that brings me to answering your question in terms of how did I get into this work you mentioned earlier? And I really love the book title you gave me, the one for From Nigeria to Raleigh Durham, because originally I'm from Nigeria. And if you know Nigeria so well, you would know that Nigeria is heavily inflicted with conflict. And so I grew up around conflict within my family, in the neighborhood, in the community, and then in the nation at large. So I was faced with conflict at every, every turn and everywhere that I turned. And I really didn't know that that impacted me a whole lot until, you know, I lost three of my loved ones to armed conflict. And immediately I was like, oh my God, I need to look into this situation or this, what's really about conflict. And that began to, you know, stir up a huge desire in me to, to research and excavate what does conflict really mean. And so in addition to just going the conflict route, I have done so many things from that as a result of that experience which has led me to this point. And then I also encountered a serious situation as well, with myself on my growth, on my personal development journey as someone who also grew up without a present father. And so as a result of that, I was like, oh, this is interesting. And so I've always being the kind of person that would transform my pain or my experience into a purpose, into something that could really help many people out there. And it's super exciting to be here and to talk about the things that really makes me happy. Thank you, boy. [00:07:36] Speaker B: So remind me, what was your age range during this time? You said I grew up in conflict. I lost three family members to armed conflict. How old are you? During this, during this period when I. [00:07:53] Speaker A: Grew up, I was pretty aware of the conflict in my environment as early as the age of six. That was that early. But when I eventually lost my loved ones, I think I was about a teenager then. I was somewhat like a teenager. And so that just shaped me, you know? [00:08:11] Speaker B: Exactly. Those are formative, very, very formative years. And it strikes me, Dr. Wesley, that there are people who endure the kind of experiences that you live through and it, it poisons them. [00:08:32] Speaker A: That's true. [00:08:33] Speaker B: And they, they follow suit and they follow the generational conflict and they become a part of it. And then there are people who commit to getting out of that world and that realm as you have, and not only getting out of it. But helping to make a difference for those. And so I'm. I'm wondering. I don't want to put words in your mouth, and this isn't really a leading question, but the word why came to mind. And I just. I was trying to imagine myself in your shoes during those formative years, from six to teens. Yeah. And asking myself, why does this happen? Why? Why do people hurt one another? Why? Why is there this conflict? Why? Why do these people not like these people? And what's the problem? And how could anybody do this? Was that. You may not remember, but was, was why? Was the, Was the trying to understand why part of what has driven you to move into this? [00:09:39] Speaker A: Absolutely, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So the why is a very big factor. And just by asking me the question of why, I'm reminded of. Let's even start with what does conflict even mean? Because that was one of the first foundational thing that I had to explore. What is conflict and why does it exist? Again, back to the why. And so I have learned over time that conflict happens when different individual or independent parties perceive. And the word perceive there needs to be underlined because people actually perceive incompatible goals. Either there's incompatible goals, objectives, ideologies, perspectives, or even orientation. And so when people perceive that another person is trying to obstruct the ability to achieve something, then conflict is bound to arise. And so when conflict happened between two people, these are two different people with different experiences, different value systems. And so one person is trying to protect their own way, thinking their way is right, and the other person is also trying to protect theirs. And as a result of that, conflict, you know, happens. And I realized that that's one of the reason why, you know, there's just so much. And I always like to say that conflict is everywhere. It's not just about the fact that I grew up in Nigeria or Africa. Conflict is right here, right now. It's just because we're not trying to bring it to the open. When people say conflict, they don't want to bring conflict. They don't want to cause conflict. What they're trying to say is they don't want to open the worm. They don't want to open the bag of conflict because it really does exist. And the reason it exists is because we all have different orientations. We all have different perspectives that are not aligned. And the way we resolve conflict is to come into that mutual understanding where I can see where you're coming from, and you can see where I'm coming from. And as a result of that we're transforming those conflicts. Yes. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. So a couple of things come to mind as you define this conflict. That. The perception of incompatible goals. You know, I think of. I think of the terms of a divorce around the term irreconcilable differences. You know, the. A conflict that's just irreconcilable, or at least we perceive that there's no path forward, that there is no solution, that there's no middle ground, that it's. That we can't reconcile. So it's not. It's not. What I heard you say is it's not incompatible goals. That's the conflict. It's the perception. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:23] Speaker B: Of incompatible goals. That's the conflict. That, that. That seems like a pretty key differentiator for me. The other thing that strikes me is that conflict is not. Conflict and difference are not synonymous. We can have differences as long as those differences don't get in the way of each other. Right. It's like self interest. [00:12:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:50] Speaker B: And you use the word protect. I was waiting for that word. That has to be a part of it. We want to protect our self interest in. In conflict. That's. That's powerful. When you and I talked offline, we recognized that conflict in all its forms is everything from two, you know, the. The finance director and the CEO of a nonprofit. Right. Differing on. On a strategy forward or. Or a. An answer to a problem all the way to global jihad, because there's factions of people and we've identified with affinities and tribes, we call it. And so now it's self interest, but collective self interest. Now that cause. And, but it's. But we were talking, at least we started a conversation. I want to continue it today. We started a conversation about what's similar between those things. What's similar between global jihad and the aftermath and all the implications and ramifications of that. And a board of directors of a small community nonprofit having conflict about an ethical decision to make or a strategic decision or a financial decision. What is similar in those situations? What makes them both alike? [00:14:22] Speaker A: Oh, yes, that's a beautiful conversation to start with. Like I said earlier, the principles and the drivers or tenets of conflict are the same. It's just manifesting differently. And what the similarity about either the micro or the macro depends on how you look at it is. I've got a couple of, you know, responses, and the first one is just again, back to perceptions of incompatibility. For example, a team member perceives that the workload is just so much. And then there's this conflict that begin to arise between team members. There's also the one called the unmet needs. Everyone is trying to get their needs met. And that's one of the things we don't really talk about. Everybody wants to get their needs met. And so when those needs are not met, regardless of the situation or the context, conflict is bound to happen. Another thing is just, let's say like scarcity of resources. You know, there are situations where the competitions among team members or there are competitions about, you know, among a nation or a country regarding a particular resources that they need. And when they are not having it their way, boom, there's this conflict that's, that comes up. And a very simple one, but not so simple, is just miscommunication. We actually have been so used to communication and we think it's just communication. I'm just talking. But we realize that there's so much system and science that goes into truly understanding how to communicate and what's the best way to communicate. That involves listening and engaging and acknowledging and interacting on a deeper level. Miscommunication is also something. When Mr. A says something and another person interprets it as another thing, and whoa, you know, conflict emerges. And then we also have power imbalances. This happens a lot, especially if we're talking about organizations where there's just so much structures and you know, we have like the board of directors, the executive leaders, the team members, the subordinate. All of those power differences, you know, can actually lead to different kinds of conflict. And we also see this in a global and, you know, larger scale where a particular nation sees itself as better than the other, or one person thinks he or she's better. We even see this even in the work I do on the jihad, where the terrorist groups and their religious conditionings find themselves or see themselves as better off than other religion and all of that. And that leads to, you know, extreme violence that that happens among them. So we have the different, different values and beliefs like I established earlier. We're all coming from different perspective and different experiences. And so we're going to all have different values and different belief systems. And so when we come in contact with that, boom, conflict is going to arise. And then there is also the historical grievances. And this is something that people really do not talk about. We see this even happening in the Israeli or Palestinian war, you know, Russia, Ukraine war. These are de. Deep seated historical issues that have just lasted years and it continues to escalate regardless. And we call those kind of conflicts intractable conflicts. And we see this even happening in the workspace where something happened to Mr. A or Mr. B or A leader and they haven't really taken the time to resolve that conflict. What happens is it begins to infect or affect the organizational culture. And as a result of that, you know, the conflict escalates longer than it should. And then there is just the general rule of uncertainty. Sometimes when we are uncertain of what happens or what's likely to happen, conflict is also going to emerge. So we see all of these characteristics happen both in the micro, which is the, you know, one on one interpersonal organizational level and in the macro, whether it's the community level or we're talking about a stronger established organization, it just happens. These are basic principles that shows itself across all spectrums. [00:18:50] Speaker B: Well, that's a beautiful outlay of the, of the conditions your, your book, which let me go ahead and tell our listeners, the book is, the book is Jihad in Sub Saharan Africa and the subtitle is the Role of Digital Media. So the research was on how extremists use digital media to recruit, to propagate, to influence, to disrupt what, all of those things. And the book, the book outlines these many, many of what you just said. The, the conditions that make conflict like the perfect storm. And there's one in particular that really struck me. I mean, the book talks about regional instability and inter communal tensions. And you know, if there's a weak governance, we could talk about that for a long time. Weak leadership can lead to conflict. Yes, but the one common denominator among a lot of it is poverty and inequality and marginalization of populations because those are what create the kind of appetite for people to be open to other extreme ideas out of survival, out of inclusion, out of, out of our appetite for wanting these things. And you know, we wonder how could someone be recruited and persuaded that this is, this is right. Well, it's because if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, many of these people are at the bottom of that pyramid and they're in survival mode. Their worldview is not one of self efficacy and you know, inclusion and embracing the rest of the world. So this idea of what that led me to, so back to how does this equate or relate to, you know, organizational conflict is the, this idea of feeling threatened by something or someone. And if we're feeling threatened by someone or someone, that's an insecurity in and of itself which says we're not at that place of maturity to not be threatened. Right. And we're in survival Mode. We're not in thrive mode at that, at that point. And that happens all the time in the workplace, people feeling threatened by someone else. So you're passive aggressive because you know, Susie went to the, went over your head and went to the boss or you know what, or John said something to you in a meeting that you interpreted to be, you know, you're, you stink and I hate you and that crate. That creates conflict, but that comes out of a sense of survival and being threatened rather than one of a secure sense of belonging and self efficacy. That's just my, just my observation and connection in the book as you out as you laid out the conditions that make it ripe for, for a conflict to occur. You're your thoughts on that. [00:22:00] Speaker A: Yeah. What you've just highlighted is so true because I see it happen, happen all the time. And it's really interesting because there are several drivers that really does just escalate all of this kind of conflict. And like you mentioned, when people are threatened, their ego is actually what's threatened. We've got ego being threatened. The identity is threatened. [00:22:28] Speaker B: The old ego emotions are going ay. [00:22:34] Speaker A: You know, they're beginning to feel the fear, the anger, the anxiety, the frustration. And it's all because of again, this cassette in mindset, this, this and sometimes I would even say just the lack of awareness that they are enough. And one of the things I also want to just highlight in addition to what you mentioned is I always say when it comes to miscommunication or misrepresentation or misinterpretation, regardless of what that looks like in any setting, nothing has meaning except the meaning we give to it. So when people are assuming a particular thing, it's because they gave meaning to it. And so when once the emotion or the psychological drivers like emotion, ego, identity and all those stereotypical things that just arise and we notice ourselves feeling that way, let's ask ourselves the question, what meaning am I giving to this thing? And as soon as you're able to get to the root cause of the meaning you've assigned to it, then you can get to the root cause of why that's making you feel that way and you can reframe the meaning and then get yourself in a good state and condition where you can actually address the issue from a place of responding as opposed to reacting. [00:23:51] Speaker B: Yeah, or we talk about it as, as you, you're. I love your phrase about assigning meaning. Yes, we, we have, we make up our stories. So, so in the absence of an accurate narrative, we have to fill One in. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:24:07] Speaker B: And so we'll take a comment that we don't have full context on. We didn't take the time to dig in deep to the person who made the comment, why they made it, and where they were coming from. And since we don't have that, we have to make up our own story. And that story is made up largely by how secure we are in ourselves. [00:24:24] Speaker A: Yes. [00:24:25] Speaker B: And it's, it's, it's often not really even a function of the other person and whether or not they had ill intent. It's about our own level of security and our own ability to open our minds to letting someone else tell us what they mean rather than us assuming what they mean. [00:24:44] Speaker A: Absolutely, yes. [00:24:49] Speaker B: What else do you find common from the continuum of small conflict to global conflict? What else is common among those things? We talk about crisis, for example, and I'll ask people, how does your organization handle crisis? And they'll say, well, what kind of crisis? Do you mean the building caught on fire? Or do you mean the printer shut down and we've got a big direct mail campaign like, what level of crisis? And I always ask, what's the difference? How does your organization handle crisis? Uninvited, unwelcome disruptions to your work? And so if we looked at conflict the same way, how does your organization handle conflict? Well, how deep is the conflict are you talking about? You know, the, there's mutiny on the board of directors. Are you talking about, you know, Joe and Susie can't agree over the budget. What do you find common? What else do you find common among. Across the continuum of what makes up conflict? [00:25:56] Speaker A: One thing I find common is that people are not really aware of the cost of conflict, both in the micro organizational level or at the top. When we are very aware of what it cost us to, to have conflict, we will put the right systems in place to ensure that we manage it or we prevent it from happening. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Wow. I mean, that's so powerful because we have the conflict in a space of emotion. [00:26:36] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:39] Speaker B: And when emotion gets involved, cognitive skills can sometimes really suffer. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Yep. [00:26:47] Speaker B: And you're right. We don't think about what is this costing us. [00:26:52] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:53] Speaker B: Wow. That is definitely. I mean, I can go across the continuum of little, tiny, insignificant conflicts to big global ones, and they all cost something. Something we haven't paused to calculate. [00:27:05] Speaker A: It does. Upon coming to, you know, today's conversation, I was doing a little bit of research. And, you know, I would always do research. I'm a researcher by default. And I came across this, you know, the center for Workplace Performance. It's a global human capital report, and it says that 8 to 5% of employees have to deal with conflict on a regular basis. And the research even went further to talk about how here in the US There is this. In every organization, they tend to have weekly disagreements. We're not talking about conflict now. Let's start with the disagreement. Disagreement happens on a weekly basis, and this translates to $359 billion paid for the time that employees spend engaging in interpersonal conflict. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. I've seen similar research just on conversation. [00:28:11] Speaker A: Just on conversation. [00:28:12] Speaker B: Conflicting conversation. Yeah. [00:28:15] Speaker A: And how that impacts the productivity. You know, it just slows down things because we're not really looking at it from the cost basis. If leaders and executive leaders really look, how much am I losing as a result of this conflict, they will put together what I call a dispute system design. They would create the conditions that would help manage or even prevent it before it happens. And so there is that flow. There is a system that helps when conflict happens. And this even happens even in the global scale where we're still signing peace agreements, peace treaty, from one nation to the other. It's because we're not taking it seriously and it's costing us a lot. [00:28:59] Speaker B: You know, it. Are we not taking it seriously or do we just not know how to do it? We don't know how to start. When you. When you start describing, hey, you know, build a system to deal with it and to, you know, keep it from happening, leaders hear that and go, well, wouldn't that be nice? I have no idea how to do that. We're not skilled for that. Right. We're fundraisers and we champion causes for the homeless, you know, but we're not systems designers in that way. So we don't know how to build those systems. And we don't even know. I'm just thinking out loud here. We don't even know that we created those systems. We don't even realize we created the environment that's producing the conflict we're experiencing. [00:29:47] Speaker A: Wow. [00:29:47] Speaker B: And we don't even know how we did that, let alone how to reverse it. So. So let me. That points. That makes me want to ask you this. What are the. I mean, are there three or four key tenets that you help organizational leaders in resolving and avoiding the toxic kind of conflict? Are there. Are there three or four things in that system design that we can at least start thinking about things in the right framework? [00:30:16] Speaker A: Yes. That's a very beautiful question. The very first thing is just to look at the dynamics of the organization and say, who are the key leaders in this organization? Identifying. It's almost like coming out with, coming up with a chat, like an organogram of what your organization looks like. You start from the top, all the way to the bottom, depending on how it looks. And you begin to look into each of those systems and say, which of these individual parts or entity within this organization, how often do they interact with each other? We're actually creating a system based on interactions. If team A always frequently interacts with team B, that's an opening for conflict right there. If team B interacts with team E, that's an opening for conflict. And we begin to ask ourselves, okay, now that we know all of the interaction systems within our organization, how do we put in place the things that needs to go into, for example, a conflict emerge? Who do we need to report this to? Have we trained our staff or have we trained our leaders to be able to manage or resolve conflict? Are they well trained such that when a situation comes to them, they are able to handle the conflict? Or another system is, do we have a mediator in place that when there's a very deep conflict seated in the organization, we can reach out to a third party and just be like, we don't have to wait until it escalates. We could just bring the person in. The person looks at it from a very objective and compassionate perspectives, bring in their strategies, and immediately the conflict is resolved and the work continues. These are some of the things that we can even begin to do from now. As opposed to, let's say you don't want to go too deep into designing a system, but just start with we need a mediator. We need to train our executives, we need to train our leaders on how to handle this conflict. We need someone within the organization who is not biased. Again, we are all biased. I know, but we need someone who is trained with the skills to be able to handle those minor little conflict before the end escalate. And if we have all of those tiny systems in place, I think it can go a long way. [00:32:43] Speaker B: You know, I think your use of the word systems is spot on. And we're doing, in my company, we're, we're doing more what we call systemic coaching. We've done a lot of one on one coaching and, and helping a leader be, be a better leader, right? Be a better person in the workplace and, and be a better leader. But the, there's a bigger, you can't do it by yourself. There is a system at play here. We are we are a system. As an individual, I'm a system. I've got. I've got hands, I've got a nervous system, I've got a, you know, circulatory and a skeletal and all the. We are a system and we work in an organization that is made up of systems, and our organizations are inside of a system, and that system is inside of a system. Boy, we could really get into your book now, right? These systems that exist. And so we're trying to do more of coaching the system through its people. The people who can influence the system, the people who can throw catalysts into the mix, the people who can pull a lever, the people who understand they have influence in some way in the system. And so, you know, that. That does make it so much more complicated. But, yeah, it's the practical things, like thinking about, you know, who. Who is a neutral mediator that we can turn to when we have these, These conflicts. The other thing that strikes me. And by the way, I want to check this out. Did you say the center for Workforce Performance or Workplace performance? [00:34:18] Speaker A: Workplace. [00:34:19] Speaker B: Workplace performance. Okay. Yeah, I want to. I want to look more into that. [00:34:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:28] Speaker B: I want to. To go to something that you mentioned offline to me. You used the term the darker side of conflict and how for a while you were absolutely. You were actually obsessed. You used the word obsessed. I said I was kind of obsessed with the darker side of conflict. And then over some period of time, that mindset shifted. Talk more about that because it led you into not just conflict management, but. But peace building. Yes, the antithesis. Right, the, the. Or the antidote or what. Whatever that is. So I just was fascinated by that. What led you from being obsessed with the dark side of conflict and its makeup to being more of the. On the peace building curiosity for you? [00:35:21] Speaker A: Yes. So like I mentioned offline, which I will be mentioning online now, so our viewers can. Can get a little insight into my story. So as a result of just growing up in the environment, one of the things that conflict does is, yes, we know it shapes us and it shapes our mind and just our perception and things like that, but we hardly talk about how it deeply impact us in such a way that we could be walking. We could be like a walking bomb, you know what I mean? So I was really, number one, very upset and very angry with the system. Again, back to system. And I was really angry with the armed conflict that had happened and the terrorist group and the conflict drivers that actually did what they did. And it was the anger that actually made me Go into the research. But what I didn't understand is I was just on the dark side of conflict here. Like I'm coming to is just really looking at the terrorist groups and the hams and how they, they instigate terrorism and how they fight and what that. So those are like the dark side of conflict. I like to call them the dark side, where it's like you're just trying to understand not just why they are doing what they're doing, but really going deeper to a point where you now know how they do what they do. And the way you know how is just to think like them and become like them. And I realized that that was so exhausting for me. It's almost like the way we talk about. And I don't know who said this, so I'm just going to spit it out. It's really like you can't really use the dark to fight the dark. You've got to use the light to fight the dark. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Martin Luther King Jr. Has a quote similar to that. Only, you know, only light can cast out darkness. [00:37:23] Speaker A: Absolutely. Only light can cast out something like that. [00:37:27] Speaker B: I don't want to misquote him, but it was. [00:37:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yes, I agree with you. So when you look at conflict itself, especially those who are doing it and are expressing it on a regular basis, for example, the jihad in sub Saharan Africa, these are people that, that's their mission to actually cause harm. And that's the dark side of conflict. This is completely different from the healthy conflict where two people are coming with different perspectives and they're trying to get to a middle ground of understanding. And so the reason conflict exists is just so that things get destroyed. There's so much harm that is caused in our communities or in people's life. But the beautiful side of conflict is how do we transform that? And that was when I met peace. I came in contact with peace building because I was like, what's the value of peace? Why do we have peace? And I realized that peace is not the absence of conflict, neither is it the absence of war. Peace is just how you come into an harmony, you know, with, with the already existing conflict and how you're able to transform it in a way that really brings in a lot of awareness and insight and well, being into anybody's life either the person who is seeking it, person who is directly involved. And I had been in, in this whole area of conflict, looking at terrorist groups, terrorism survivors, how they do what they do, their messages, their ideologies. And I was so exhausted. And when I found peace. Peace was just a very. Not necessarily suiting. It was still doing the work, but it was doing the work from a place of transformation. You know, peace would make me see that, yes, I can begin to understand why these people are doing what they're doing and how I can get them to change their mindset and their ideologies in such a way that we can create peace within our communities. And that was how I found peace. [00:39:34] Speaker B: Wow. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Yes, boy. [00:39:38] Speaker B: Oh, so we could do a whole second hour on that, which we won't. I want to come back for a second, so hold the thought, because I want to talk with you about the difference between peace building and peacekeeping. And. But before we get there, I want to go back to the dark side. You said, you know, the. The jihad, you know, in Africa, you know, and you. You described it as the dark side, harming people. Right? Yeah, but they don't consider themselves to be the dark side. Right? [00:40:09] Speaker A: They don't. [00:40:10] Speaker B: They. They think they're on the side of. Right. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:40:14] Speaker B: They're not going at this from the standpoint of, hey, let's all go be as evil as we can be and kill all the good people. That's not their mindset. They. We're the dark side. Right. And so that's what, that's interesting to me. Just that concept that what we call the dark side that almost generates part of the conflict is calling each other dark. That's right, because we're both coming at it thinking we're the light side. You're the dark side. No, wait, no, you're the dark side. I'm the. So, I mean, and it seems so obvious and so inconceivable that we would. That. That anyone, you know, their. Their opposition is on the dark side. They, you know, the. The extremist terrorists, for example, but they don't. They don't look at themselves that way. [00:41:06] Speaker A: They don't. [00:41:07] Speaker B: I just find that fascinating. You know, how do you. How do you find. How do you build peace? I mean, it doesn't seem like you can build peace with that kind of dichotomy of mindset. [00:41:23] Speaker A: Yes, but. [00:41:26] Speaker B: But the, you know, the, the only solution that jumps in your head immediately is, well, I'm not just going to accept their way of life. It's wr. So you gave some tenants for conflict management. What are some of the tenets of peace building? [00:41:46] Speaker A: You know, the tenet of peace building? Just. You. Peace building just starts from a place of shared understanding and mutual understanding. That's why we say peace doesn't necessarily exist in the absence of war or conflict, conflict can actually be ongoing and then peace is still trying to find. [00:42:12] Speaker B: Its way in, but both parties, and just for the sake of the conversation, we'll just pretend it's only two parties. Conflicts often involve many more than that. But a conflict between two parties, where you're talking about shared interests, shared understanding, the first thing that has to come into play is an appetite for shared understanding. I don't want to understand you. I don't want to hear the first thing you have to say. You're wrong and I'm right. We don't have any share. We have nothing in common. I don't want anything in common with you. I don't want to relate to you. I don't even want to finish this conversation with you. How do you get to building an appetite, creating the appetite? I think one of the things you said earlier was calculate the cost. Yes, that's one start. I don't know how you do that, but it's a good, it was good advice. [00:43:06] Speaker A: You know, just by you asking this question of how do we, how do we increase the appetite, it made me think about again back to what we discussed earlier with the macro and the micro, which is the largest scale conflict and the little scale conflict. One of the example of how peace building looks like when it's done on a larger scale conflict is if you've ever heard of peace circles, peace circle is actually a strategy. And this is often used sometimes during protests, you know, when protesters are out there trying to get their voice heard in a way to do it in a non violent way. Sometimes this is done in a peace circle with a peace circle strategy. And if we want to incorporate that and bring it into a micro level in terms of how do we increase the appetite of someone who is already set in their ways. One of the beautiful and fastest way to get them and to get through them is to just ask questions and be curious. We actually sometimes underestimate the power of curiosity. Curious is not asking them in a way that makes them feel like what they are doing is bad. Curious is just really getting to understand the situation. A simple thing as what happened, you know, what really happened. And then they start venting, you know, they start telling you the asides and they start telling you this didn't work and that didn't work. And as they are sharing with you, you're asking them, can you clarify this more? You know, clarifying the impact of what has happened. And you can see all of these are still inquiry based strategies. And as the person is, you know, pouring out and venting, and however we want to describe it, we're asking them, can we possibly find space or room for healing, you know, more conversation. So we realized that over my, you know, over the years of doing this kind of research, I've learned that when people are asked questions that do not necessarily trigger why they are acting the way they're acting, but questions that really does seek to know what exactly happen to them, regardless of wherever we all stand, it creates an indirect opening. And that opening gives either the facilitator or the person who is doing the asking a lot of insight into where they are coming from. And as soon as you can get to where they are coming from and acknowledge the fact that they are there, it's easy for them to also want to listen to you. Now they feel heard. Now they're like, okay, I can see that. And this is, all of this thing I'm describing is how we foster dialogue. This is how dialogue takes place, where you hear the person and then the person now feels very relieved to also listen to your side of the story. So dialogue has a way of softening people and just anyone who is engaged in any kind of conflict, and this is what happens in peace circle. So there is the, before the circle, there is a circle where all the parties who are involved in the conflict are brought together, you know, and then they're having those dialogue, those conversations, those inquiry, trying to get to the root cause. And then there's this follow up conversation into, okay, what, what's the call to action? What would you like to see at the end of this? And just seeing how that could help bring about the, the piece. So that's just one piece building strategy right there that could, that could help drive the conversation forward or help transform conflict. [00:46:54] Speaker B: I could not agree more. I make my living asking questions and we train coaches how to live in the space of inquiry. But the key is the tone and purpose of the inquiry matters too. So asking people, why do you, you know, why do you believe this way? Well, that's a question and you're asking, but it's also accusatory. It's almost, it's almost judgmental. Why are you this way? Or you know, even your question around what happened is, can be asked the wrong way, it can be asked the right way. It can also be what happened to you to make you like this? You know, it's like that's not the question. And so what, what the top sort of, even moderators, mediators and others will Tell you is open the space for people to tell you their story and their stories. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:51] Speaker B: You know, tell me about growing up in Nigeria, right? Tell me what was that like, kind of, kind of place did you live in? What did your parents do? How did they, how did you, would you. Were you homeschooled? Where did you go to? What's school like in Nigeria? What's. So I'm not judging, I'm just, I want to learn. I want to know where you came. Tell me you're back. Background. Give me your context. [00:48:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:15] Speaker B: And you find out things about people through their stories. I'm starting a book. I'm looking over here to my left, see if I have it in front of me. It's called something like the Secrets of a Master Moderator or something like that. And it's by a Naomi and I can't think of her last name, but she is a, she's a world class facilitator of focus groups. She's done a lot like, of, I think political, most mostly marketing focus groups. Why people, you know, what, what resonates with people in product and things like that. And she says, for example, if you, if you're studying the habits of late night shoppers, there's a way to ask the question. If you ask them, why do you shop late at night? They they, some of them can tend to feel like, boy, that's a good question. Why do I shop at night? You almost make me sound like I shouldn't do that. Right, by asking that question. So what the moderator will do is she'll say, so tell me about the last time you went shopping after 9:00 at night. [00:49:31] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. [00:49:32] Speaker B: What drove that decision? What made that a good time for you? What was the experience like? You know, where did you shop? What did you get? You know, did you. And so just opening yourself up for those stories is such a great. We're in this world right now, Dr. Wesley, where we've got to start doing that more and more with each other right here at home. I mean, we all know the story. We all know where we are right now politically in the United States and the world. It's not all that unique to us. And we draw our lines and we state our case and we have our ultimatums and families are being destroyed by it and friendships are being destroyed by it and business client relationships are being destroyed by it and entire cities and states and I mean it is. We're in a bad place with that. [00:50:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:50:21] Speaker B: Because we won't sit and ask each other these Kinds of questions. [00:50:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, questions just, it just changes everything. The right question. Let me say that the right question. Yeah, yeah, I have. And question is just the window to vulnerability. You just, it just opens up even the terrorist or the. The most. Maybe I could even say AD of IDLA or something, you know, could. When you ask that kind of person the right question, you could just melt their heart and immediately you get down to their core. [00:51:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:01] Speaker A: And as a result of that, there is room for transformation. [00:51:04] Speaker B: That's well said. Said. Wow. Well said. Let me come back to the book for a second. In the, in the remaining minutes, we've got a couple of extra questions for you. But the book, you co authored this with Jonathan. Is it Matusitz? Is that how you say it? Okay. And it's Jihad in Sub Saharan Africa. The role of digital media. And obviously it's a research project, but is there, is there more than just information? It Was there a. What is the desired outcome of having written this book? Let me ask it that way. What do you hope this book achieves? [00:51:41] Speaker A: I hope that anyone, and when I mean anyone, I'm referring to maybe government officials, students, policymakers, agencies, experts, institutions, name it, even the general public. I hope that when they go through the content in the book, they become very aware and alert of some of the strategies that these terrorist groups are using to recruit members. And this is most important for especially our young stars coming up, the Gen Z or whatever we call them, who just go online and just reveal every and anything without literally keeping track of their digital footprint. And these are the strategies and tactics that these groups are using. Now we're living in a world of digital media, new media, and so they get access to some of this information and they begin to recruit, you know, some of their members. Now, we don't live in a world where you have to be physically, you know, you have to physically be in Africa or you have to physically be with this terrorist group before you're a member. You could be a member anywhere, so long as they're able to recruit you and sell their ideology. And then they begin to send the person on errands and stuff like that. So back to the question. It's just really to make people not just informed of what they do, but to be aware of how to protect themselves, how to stay aware and stay clean when you're online. How to. [00:53:21] Speaker B: Vigilance. [00:53:22] Speaker A: Yeah, vigilance. That's the word. How to take note of all of the strategies that are happening and how to avoid it. And even inform your kids so they are not. Not in the hacked. If I could use the word. If I could use that word. Because even as we're growing in an era of digital media and technology, we're seeing how technology is transforming our world. This is an organization who is also growing as well, and they're trying to leverage the same technology to propagate the agenda. And so one of the beautiful things this book would do is to make people aware of that and also make the general public aware that terrorism is not something you just say, oh, it's for Africa. It's in Africa. I really don't care. We're seeing domestic terrorism happen right now. Right now, in our face. [00:54:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:54:11] Speaker A: These are growing. And so just to bring that vigilance and awareness to the. To the general public. [00:54:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I. One of the things that also struck me about the book is, you know, in this recruitment strategy that they have. So I might be oversimplifying this, but. But I can. I can equate this back to the workplace, too. [00:54:39] Speaker A: Yep. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Because toxic employees will recruit others. [00:54:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:54:44] Speaker B: They will. They will poison the waters. It's what makes them toxic. They will turn you against their own leaders. I have facilitated focus groups myself, employee focus groups, where it's just discovery. It's not intended to be a gripe session. We want to. What the culture of communication is and all these different things. And I remember in particular, one. One focus group I did for a manufacturing company down in the Deep south, where we had, I don't know, maybe 20 people in the room, and which is a large focus group for an employee focus group. It was a big company, and so normally we would do, you know, six to eight, 12 at the most, but there were about 20 people in the room. And the first thing I did is say. I said, hey, who's been here the longest? Longest? And they looked around and, you know, they pointed at a couple people, and I said, how long have you been here? You know, 32 years. Anybody beat 32? And someone raises their hand, yeah, I've been here 34 years. Okay. And then I said, who's been here the least amount of time? And one. One hand rose up and said, I think I'm the only one, but I started today. And they sent me to this. Right to this focus group. And I said, well, that's interesting. That's kind of a fresh perspective. They said, well, now, don't get me wrong. I've gone through some of the training, but my actual, like, job. Job started today. I said, okay, so I'm watching the dynamic in the room and I'm watching a couple of the people that have been there 20 and 30 years. [00:56:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:11] Speaker B: Just blast their managers. They'll tell you one thing and then do another. They're dishonest. They that, that blah, blah, blah. And just, just the. Is vitriolic. And I watch the face of this new employee and their eyes wide open going, what did I just walk into? [00:56:34] Speaker A: Yep. [00:56:35] Speaker B: And leaving there now on the lookout for those, quote, nefarious behaviors of their bad managers. And I, and I said, that's how poison works. [00:56:47] Speaker A: Yep. [00:56:48] Speaker B: Because that influence happens. So it is recruiting. [00:56:52] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:53] Speaker B: And it strikes me that one of the, one of the functions of an effective leader is to recruit the right people. To recruit the right people. So how do we replace the narrative? And one of the concepts in the book that I haven't unpacked yet is how do we counter this? There's all this communication out there and they're finding the marginalized people. They're finding the people who are vulnerable to this message. What's the counter to that? And I don't know if you have the answer for that at a jihad level, but what's the answer to it in an organizational level? You know, what are the tenets of countering? We don't have time to unpack it too much. But that just came to me as you were. As the book talks about how do we count? It's difficult. It's a big challenge to try to counter narrative. [00:57:40] Speaker A: It is. [00:57:41] Speaker B: But, but you got to do that. You got. There has to be a strategy, not just to avoid it and be on the lookout for it. Leaders have to counter it with effective positive light side, not, not dark side strategy. What are your thoughts on that one? [00:57:58] Speaker A: One of the things that I thought of was again, back to what I said in terms of creating this dispute system design. That's a beautiful way to counter things like that. Another is just really leaders need to pay close attention to the culture of the organization. I think we've, we've really underestimated what the powerful effect of culture. Culture is very powerful. And it's the culture like what you've just described the scenario of, you know, the oldest in the organization speaking ill against the management and then the youngest is like looking what am I getting into? That is forming a culture right there. So they've got to be that constant review of what's the culture. And the culture is made up of people in the organization. And so if we can, how many leaders Right now can and specifically just say, this is the culture of my organization. Most people don't know that. And so building a culture of reflection, that's something I really, really enjoy doing. I have just, I'm growing a nonprofit, so I have a little small team, like I would say. And every time we meet, we meet twice a month in addition to the regular meeting. And when we meet, the first kind of meeting we do obviously is the progress report. And you know, just trying to keep track of what has gone, what's going on and what we're working on. But the very other meeting is the debrief. And the debrief is where I spend time really asking reflective questions. How, what's working for you? What's not working? And that's when, you know, they begin to tell me, oh, I, I felt frustrated when I did this task. And that begins to make me understand, oh, maybe that's a task that they're not really skilled for and that why it's increasing the frustration and how can I help them relieve them of that, you know, frustration? And so all of this is just to say building a culture of reflection, agency and community. Those are like two, three key cultural organizational principle that I've come to embrace. And it works all the time. But the reflection is the key. The reflection is the key. We don't want people. And the reason why we have, I'm sure you had the experience you had with that, you know, team is because, listen to what you said. You said they've been talking to the organization but they're not listening and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's because they're not asking them to reflect and they're not taking those reflection into consideration. So you never leave anything unturned. Every single thing matters in the organization. And this is a good way to counter some of those things where we're really asking ourselves, what culture are we building and how are we daily or weekly or monthly checking out if those culture is healthy or not? And that helps in the long run. [01:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, leaders can have such blind spots that it puts them in denial about what's going on in their culture. You know, we do these 360 degree surveys or we do employee wide surveys and you know, they come back and you know, there's a, there's. This actually happened with a client too, a company. You know, their communication between senior leaders and employees was terrible. And when we showed it to the senior leaders, they looked at and said, this is wrong, this is wrong. We're great communicators okay, well, all right. I hear you saying you think you're great communicators, but the entire organization is telling you you're not. You're not, and you're not listening to that, and it doesn't matter to you. So, oh, boy, we could really go on. I'm so fascinated by your work and your research, and I do. I do encourage people to. To get the book because, you know, you might not. You might not think that there would be a high level of interest in some, you know, in a book called Jihad in Sub Saharan Africa and the Role of Digital Media. But if you read it as a leader, read it through the lens of leadership, it's really fascinating. You know, the conditions that create conflict, the. The. The motives for conflict, the methods and the strategies that people use that you might not be aware of. And not. Not just digital media recruiting for terrorism, but again, influencers in your own organization and how conflict occurs. Boy, we really could go on. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna wrap the show up with three questions. One is, is there anything else that you came to this conversation wanting to say or. Or talk about that we haven't. That you really want to get out before we disconnect? [01:02:51] Speaker A: Okay, I'll just. I'll just say it briefly. Although this could extend into another podcast. But I'll say it briefly. I know we've talked about conflict and resolving conflict or transforming conflict. Conflict. And we often, you know, just get on each other's nerves. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna bring it on an. On an interpersonal level. And I just want to share this 4apology model that, you know, I. I came up with. And as a result of my research, if there's any word we say, like we teach our kids, we always say, try to say please. Thank you. And I'm sorry. Right. And so I'm sorry is one of the simplest way we think we could say it's to just get an offense off our sleeves and just move on. I'm sorry. Can you just move on? And so I'm sorry is an apology in and of itself. It's a communicative apology technique. But I just want to be able to just share with you four hours of apologies so that when you say you're sorry, you actually mean you're sorry. And that could open up the space for conflict to be transformed. And the first one is recognition, recognizing a narrative that acknowledges the offense. So you've got to recognize. Recognize what you did and why you're Sorry. So instead of saying I'm sorry, can we just move on? Just go ahead and say, I shouldn't have done this. I'm now aware that I did this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The second one is remorse. When we say I'm sorry without remorse, it carries no weight. Remorse is actually not necessarily feeling regretful, like you're trying to beat yourself up, but you're just really, really acknowledging that, oh, this hurt was. Wasn't good enough, or what I said shouldn't have come out that way. The third is a reassurance. So it's like a statement that removes the doubt or the fear of repeating that same thing that you've done earlier. And all of these are all embedded in I'm sorry. So just saying I'm sorry when I tell people I'm sorry, I'm like, how sorry are you? And so you realize that even when you've said you're sorry, the conflict still goes on. And so when you've reassured the person, the final one is reparation, where you're making requests for amends. So we have recognition, remorse, reassurance, and repartation where you're making requests for amends. So a very good example would have been maybe I offended Patrick, and I'm like, patrick, it's very unlike me. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have yelled at you at this manner. I sincerely, deeply apologize. I promise to work on regulating my emotions when next I feel triggered by what you've just said to me. You know, instead of raising my voice at you, I would ask you to. For us to take turns while speaking so you can see that in that simple sentence or sentences. That's a very healthy way of saying I'm sorry, instead of just saying, oh, I'm sorry, can we just forget about this? And then, no, it never ends, you know, and I just wanted to just put that out there just to make our listeners business walk away with. With something they can actively use. Ensure that when you're apologizing, you're recognizing you're feeling remorseful, you're reassuring the person that that wouldn't happen again. And it also reassures yourself. So you hold yourself accountable. And then you make a request on how. On how you can take the conversation forward. Okay, thank you for listening. [01:06:17] Speaker B: And then reparation. [01:06:19] Speaker A: Yes, reparation. [01:06:20] Speaker B: The. The. Another word that came to mind. And actually two came to mind. I don't know if these fit the model or not. They just both happen to be ours. But when I think about reparation, I think about recompense, which is a biblical term, actually. [01:06:41] Speaker A: Yes. [01:06:41] Speaker B: But also reconciliation. [01:06:44] Speaker A: Yep. [01:06:45] Speaker B: And where does that, you know, where am I. That fit in as well? Well, this is. This is good. Can I. Can I. Can I have it? Can I steal it? Can I use it? [01:06:53] Speaker A: Please do. [01:06:54] Speaker B: My coaching is brilliant. Yeah. Because we do, you know. You know, I'm sorry, and sometimes I'm sorry. I just. I'm gonna say it because I'm tired of fighting, so I'm just gonna say it. Right. And we say, are you sorry for what you did, or are you sorry you got caught? Right. What are you sorry for? Exactly. Right. Which is the remorse, the. The. The recognition of, you know, hey, look, I shouldn't have done this, and. Yeah. Boy, that's really good. A model. A model for apology. [01:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And I really love your suggestion of the reconciliation. I think that comes after the initial hours that I've mentioned when we realize that the conflict hasn't progressed. We've got to reconcile, and how do we combat back and. And move forward again? Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna add that, too. I'm gonna steal that from you. [01:07:46] Speaker B: Well, you know, there's. There's something about the. The prefix. Right? Re. I mean, renewal, recovery, restoration. I mean, all of those things can. Can play into a conflict. So you got me thinking here about all the. All the res. [01:08:02] Speaker A: All the res. [01:08:03] Speaker B: Wow, that's so good. I'm glad I asked for one more thing. Is there. Is there another. Is there something else? [01:08:09] Speaker A: Oh, no, let's just. Let's just let the listeners walk away with this. [01:08:12] Speaker B: Leave them wanting more. Right? Leave them wanting more. All right, I want to ask you two questions, Dr. Wesley, that I like to ask all my guests because I love the stories. Who comes to mind as a leader in your life, whether you know them or you've watched them from afar, a leader in your life that you would say has had tremendous impact on your leadership and your view of leadership and why. [01:08:40] Speaker A: Interesting. I'm a person of faith. Jesus comes to mind, actually. Yes. The servant leadership as a person of faith. I've been studying his ways quite lately, and. And I'm always fascinated by how, you know, there's this showing of compassion, humility, teachings, true storytelling, parables, like all of the above. And I'm like, this is quite interesting. That's one person that comes to mind just by thinking about someone who has had a profound impact on how I see things, the servant leadership. Another person, if you don't mind me mentioning, will be my spouse. I really do not think of sacrificial leadership until I met him. And this is because it's not necessarily about prioritizing other people's need above yours. It's just really being mindful, being mindful of the other. And, you know, coming from a personality like me, I'm very laser focused on my own thing. And so coming in contact, I'm like, oh, oh. So he has kind of made me very aware of the other side of things. And so my spouse is also another person that takes that sacrificial leadership approach where he puts the other in, in addition to his. And then he kind of like looks at things holistically, and that's really not my default. And so I'm learning that through him, and it has really had a big influence on me. Yeah. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Wow. Wow. And a lot in common there. The. The. The servanthood part of leadership. Serving others. Yeah, leadership is about others. It's not about us. Yeah, so that's good. Well, you've given us. I don't know if you might have given us a glimpse into the last question for you, and that is you are on the top of a mountain with a big, giant megaphone, and all the leaders of the world are at the base of the mountain to hear you speak. And you have 15 seconds to tell the all the leaders of the world what you believe is the most important component or element or concept of leadership. What is the Dr. Doris Wesley 15 second view of leadership? [01:11:04] Speaker A: Oh, I would always say serve with your heart. Your heart and your hands, not your head all the time. And the reason I'm saying that is because serving with your heart makes you always check yourself and regulate and just make sure that what you're doing is healthy for not just yourself, but for others. And then serving with your hands means that you're not just dictating, but you're also. You're also getting the work done. So your heart and your hands should go along, and then the head can come at some point, but the head is full of critics and full of judgment. And so we want to just tone it down a little bit. You know, if we can amplify the heart, the hands, and then later the head can come. And we're Talking about the 3H now, and I believe that'll be a good way to serve holistically. That's how I've approached it. [01:11:59] Speaker B: All right, I'm in. I bought that. I love it. Super Inspiring. Thank you, Dr. Wesley. Thank you so much, folks. Seriously, there's so much more to unpack and uncover about what Dr. Wesley has to offer the world. Individuals, organizations. Learn more about her non profit because that's an area we didn't get into a lot on the show. But I'll just give you a quick a quick hint into it. It's the Gem Daughters Network. You know gem like the jewel the Gem Daughters Network. And it the what she does in that organization is equip individuals, organizations, institutions, communities with the necessary skills to transform conflict at any level using methodologies. But the but the non profit without giving too much away, look into it is very centered on fatherhood, particularly for young women. So learn more about that. It's a it's a fledgling new non profit trying to find its wings in its place and has a great start. So learn more about that. Best place you can go is Doris Wesley.com Doris D O R I S Wesley W E S L E Y Doriswey.com you'll see much more about how what an extraordinary difference that she's making in the world. Thank you Dr. Wesley. [01:13:37] Speaker A: Thank you so much. [01:13:38] Speaker B: Lead on folks.